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How do 'progressives' cope with people like me that are socially liberal(pro chocce, pro public health/education, pro SSM etc etc), yet feel strongly that we need to be able to pay for our social  contract with something toher than our grandchildrens high interest VISA card??

 

Am I a fascist or a 'regressive'? 

 

Vote now.  Vote often.

Edited by overthere
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56 minutes ago, overthere said:

How do 'progressives' cope with people like me that are socially liberal(pro chocce, pro public health/education, pro SSM etc etc), yet feel strongly that we need to be able to pay for our social  contract with something toher than our grandchildrens high interest VISA card??

By hating you, of course.

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On 6/4/2017 at 1:24 PM, kimmy said:

"...so, aside from that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln?"

Ok, so college campuses aren't friendly places for inflammatory right-wing speakers like Ann Coulter or Milo Whatsisname.  But that wasn't the question we've been discussing. The question has been, are social conservative views being given fair representation in our democracy?   And the atmosphere on college campuses is pretty tangential to that question.  It's no more relevant than the atmosphere in small-town diners where rural people meet for coffee.

I think I understand your view/thought-process: "Where is it worst to be a minority of one: a single libertarian among a bunch of left-wing radicals, a single socialist among a bunch of libertarians or a single gay woman among a bunch of Christian fanatics."

Kimmy, as a single person (a minority of one) , which situation is harder/easier to confront?

Edited by August1991
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10 hours ago, August1991 said:

I think I understand your view/thought-process: "Where is it worst to be a minority of one: a single libertarian among a bunch of left-wing radicals, a single socialist among a bunch of libertarians or a single gay woman among a bunch of Christian fanatics."

Kimmy, as a single person (a minority of one) , which situation is harder/easier to confront?

I don't presume to know which of those situations would be the most difficult, I just wish to point out that many people do find themselves in such situations.

 

My own brief university experience bore little resemblance to the current popular perception of political correctness gone mad. I didn't find campus hostile to my views, or to any views, really. I never actually encountered walk-ins, walk-outs, sit-ins, teach-ins, and all the rest of this stuff. I was in mostly science and math courses, and people were mostly concerned with the course material. This was at the University of Alberta about 10 years ago, perhaps things have changed.

In my current smaller town situation, I encounter rednecks and older conservatives a lot more than I encounter politically-correct social justice mobs or intolerant liberals trying to silence anybody. I sometimes have to bite my tongue in the interest of maintaining the peace. A while back city hall painted the crosswalk stripes at a downtown intersection in rainbow colors instead of black and white, and local conservatives didn't feel intimidated from expressing their anger in local media outlets. 

This environment where conservatives have to "stay in the closet" or face social stigma might fit Argus's situation, I dunno, but it doesn't match the environment in my community.

 -k

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I'd say sensible....but you display more rhetoric than that on this board.  So I'd have to say......opaque.

On Monday, June 05, 2017 at 0:18 PM, overthere said:

How do 'progressives' cope with people like me that are socially liberal(pro chocce, pro public health/education, pro SSM etc etc), yet feel strongly that we need to be able to pay for our social  contract with something toher than our grandchildrens high interest VISA card??

 

Am I a fascist or a 'regressive'? 

 

Vote now.  Vote often.

 

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5 hours ago, kimmy said:

 This was at the University of Alberta about 10 years ago, perhaps things have changed.

Things have changed in just the last few years, actually. You should read some of what professor Johnathan hadt has to say or see his you tube videos.

Basically, he says the issue is the kids who have been entering university and college over the last few years have been the first of a new breed, those raised since the mentality set in among parents that says children should never be allowed outside alone, and should always be carefully supervised and guarded by parents, teachers, coaches, or some other responsible adult. These kids never learned how to cope with disagreements among themselves because adults were always there to step in. They are also the first to be run through a school system dedicated to imparting progressive social views on their minds. They've embraced those views like a religion, are outraged whenever anyone contradicts their beliefs, and immediate look for an 'adult' in this case the university, to stop those who are 'hurting them' with words.

Quote

In my current smaller town situation,

Small towns out west are quite a bit different in their atmosphere than cities, even ones out west, never mind those in central Canada.

Edited by Argus
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On 6/5/2017 at 0:18 PM, overthere said:

How do 'progressives' cope with people like me that are socially liberal(pro chocce, pro public health/education, pro SSM etc etc), yet feel strongly that we need to be able to pay for our social  contract with something toher than our grandchildrens high interest VISA card??

 

Am I a fascist or a 'regressive'? 

 

Vote now.  Vote often.

Overthere, if you're socially liberal, you have no kids.

First: Pay your way. IOW, save about 40%, offshore, solely for your pension while working. (Given that you won't work until you're 25, you'll retire at 60, and you'll die at 80.)

Second: Hope/pray the future has people who respect you in your old age. 

Third: Be socially conservative and have kids, like Elton John. 

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15 hours ago, August1991 said:

Overthere, if you're socially liberal, you have no kids.

First: Pay your way. IOW, save about 40%, offshore, solely for your pension while working. (Given that you won't work until you're 25, you'll retire at 60, and you'll die at 80.)

Second: Hope/pray the future has people who respect you in your old age. 

Third: Be socially conservative and have kids, like Elton John. 

  I have two, and they are better citizens than me.  Adjust your assumptions.

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On 6/6/2017 at 1:47 PM, Argus said:

Things have changed in just the last few years, actually. You should read some of what professor Johnathan hadt has to say or see his you tube videos.

Basically, he says the issue is the kids who have been entering university and college over the last few years have been the first of a new breed, those raised since the mentality set in among parents that says children should never be allowed outside alone, and should always be carefully supervised and guarded by parents, teachers, coaches, or some other responsible adult. These kids never learned how to cope with disagreements among themselves because adults were always there to step in. They are also the first to be run through a school system dedicated to imparting progressive social views on their minds. They've embraced those views like a religion, are outraged whenever anyone contradicts their beliefs, and immediate look for an 'adult' in this case the university, to stop those who are 'hurting them' with words.

Small towns out west are quite a bit different in their atmosphere than cities, even ones out west, never mind those in central Canada.

That simply is not true of all small towns in the West.  There are plenty of artsy, progessive places.  Lets start with Nelson, Whitehorse and Cumberland for starters, there are dozens more.  Actuially, include all of the Kootenays and much of Vancouver Island as being generally left of Mao much of the time.

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On 6/8/2017 at 3:18 PM, overthere said:

  I have two, and they are better citizens than me.  Adjust your assumptions.

If you have kids - even adopted, IMHO - you are "socially conservative".

A "social conservative" is someone prepared to bear the burden, the private cost, of creating the future.

=====

Sadly for the West, many people view the future as "socially liberal". 

 

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On 6/4/2017 at 11:57 AM, Rue said:

If you refer to the New Zealander Sir Roger, I got you although his economic policies such as flat rate income tax, I would need to wrap my head around some more.

Economics is not my forte and he had some pretty innovative economic theories reinventing some old ones. Not sure he could have done what he did in Canada. Our economy is too tied to the US to have done what he did with the currency for example. Our currency devaluation is in direct relation to reacting to the US dollar not any other reason.

Was Mitchell Sharp are equivalent to him? I do not know. Maybe? I personally find our financial policies predictable and boring and basically unimaginative that assume we will always be a US branch plant. We've always started off with that assumption. There's been no willingness to strive for less dependence on US markets and investments other than to say if not the US then China.

I will be curious to see with the Scheer Conservatives what the approach will be on free trade with the US, Europe, Asia.

I myself would like to see Canada diversify its economic activities. This is not the time to be heavily dependent on a very protectionist US government.

As a conservative on economic policies only, I don't like what the US is threatening  to do and what he has done with  the Great Lakes.

I do not like some of the things the US Commerce Secretary has said about Canada, Mexico, Germany. They sound absurd in their simplistic labelling.

Then again Trump said the exact same things about China. South Korea and Japan, and now has done a 360 on those three countries...so....

 

 

 

Yes, Sir Rog from Kiwi country.  You are right, though: we could not pull off what he did, as we have a Federal government that defers much of the state level stuff to the provinces, but one province of course exceeds even the Federal powers and privileges of the 617 First Nations communities that might as well be their own cit-states.

I can see flat tax...but only after a GIA type of payment to relieve the bottom end, and eliminate most of the bureaucracies that exist to grant the privilege to dip into the taxpayers' back pocket.   Further to that, I feel that a punitive tax on capital gains needs to be "progressive" to the extent of being 99% on day one, 95% first year, and tapering off to the flat rate over 10 or more years.

You hit the US thing right on the head.   Not that we should pull back from a market that size that is right on our doorstep and speaks the same language, but we should be focusing most of our efforts on developing new markets for value added products, instead of hewing more wood and drawing more water.

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It was as recently as the 70's when we in Finland had an extra-tax for unmarried people and that tax caught on very young, something like 24-25 years of age.

The worrying thing is that as the birth-rate is plummetting, which is a worrying thing, some people have proposed that such an unfair tax should be brought back. There are so many what-ifs attached to such a tax that even though the plummetting birth-rate is a genuinen problem the way to approach that problem should be with a carrot rather than a stick which such a tax was.

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On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 0:18 PM, overthere said:

How do 'progressives' cope with people like me that are socially liberal(pro chocce, pro public health/education, pro SSM etc etc), yet feel strongly that we need to be able to pay for our social  contract with something toher than our grandchildrens high interest VISA card??

 

Am I a fascist or a 'regressive'? 

 

Vote now.  Vote often.

I have the same basic beliefs, mostly I don't care how other people live their lives, unless it goes to extremes and starts affecting the vast majority of the rest of us, I think that's a reasonable compromise point of view. I think it's really conservatives who do most of the compromising on their personal views, but the nature of progressiveness is that there is always something more to progress towards, it won't ever be possible to satisfy people who hold that sort of world view, and they will never stop trying to progress us.

Edited by Stan
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8 hours ago, BubbleGumYum said:

You say anti-abortion like it's a bad thing. Pretty sure all scientifically-literate, moral people recognize the evils of abortion. A decent person will be no less anti-abortion than she is anti-slavery.

That's an unnecessarily and unhelpful extreme position. It's also ridiculously incorrect, as I'm sure you must be aware. Those who accept abortion do so as fetuses in their early stage are not seen as people/humans/children but mere blobs barely removed from eggs or sperm. Forcing a woman to grow one to term is a violation of her own rights to do with her body as she chooses. That is the view of the majority of Canadians and Americans and Europeans. And again, I'm sure you know this. So depicting them all as immoral is demonizing.

Though I freely admit that side also does the same in reverse.

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8 hours ago, BubbleGumYum said:

You say anti-abortion like it's a bad thing. Pretty sure all scientifically-literate, moral people recognize the evils of abortion. A decent person will be no less anti-abortion than she is anti-slavery.

Actually, anyone who is anti slavery would be against forcing a women to undergo unwanted medical procedures and carry a fetus to term.

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8 hours ago, BubbleGumYum said:

You say anti-abortion like it's a bad thing. Pretty sure all scientifically-literate, moral people recognize the evils of abortion. A decent person will be no less anti-abortion than she is anti-slavery.

I support free abortion because experience has shown that banning abortion has brought nothing but problems but I detest calling people nazi if they are anti-abortion or anti-gay unless those very people have expressed sympathies for the 1930's national socialism policies of Germany.

Note the words national socialism. For some weird reason that is considered far-right.

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I do not support or condemn abortion.  

 

I do support a womans right to choose.

 

One of the truly annoying things about Pro Lifers is this bullshit , constant conflation that being ProChoice means you support abortion.  

 

Hey Prolifers, its none of my business what a woman chooses .  And news flash: it is none of yours either.  Get thee out of that uterus.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2017-6-20 at 0:53 PM, -TSS- said:

I support free abortion because experience has shown that banning abortion has brought nothing but problems but I detest calling people nazi if they are anti-abortion or anti-gay unless those very people have expressed sympathies for the 1930's national socialism policies of Germany.

Note the words national socialism. For some weird reason that is considered far-right.

Because it's a fake name designed to mislead and obfuscate true  purpose.

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On 2017-6-20 at 4:31 AM, BubbleGumYum said:

You say anti-abortion like it's a bad thing. Pretty sure all scientifically-literate, moral people recognize the evils of abortion. A decent person will be no less anti-abortion than she is anti-slavery.

A decent person will mind their own business.

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On 29/05/2017 at 10:19 AM, Boges said:

Liberals can't have it both ways. He can't be both Harper 2.0 and a Social Conservative Nazi that will pledge to reverse Abortion and Gay Marriage laws. Because Harper never did that.

I don't think anyone knows much of anything about this guy. But if you're looking for a youthful face to fight JT, this guy is probably a good option. 

He's stated that might be his personal opinion but he has no interest in revisiting those issues. I guess we'll see.

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On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 1:31 AM, BubbleGumYum said:

You say anti-abortion like it's a bad thing. Pretty sure all scientifically-literate, moral people recognize the evils of abortion. A decent person will be no less anti-abortion than she is anti-slavery.

Nothing wrong with being anti abortion but becomes a problem when you try to impose your beliefs on others.

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