Why Trust the Bible?

[DogOnPorch]

Quote

The following are some evidences for the argument that the Creator has intimate knowledge of His creation.

 

You've certainly convinced yourself.

Edited June 18, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

The following are some evidences for the argument that the Creator has intimate knowledge of His creation.

But does that mean the creation has intimate knowledge of the creator?

[TTM]

On 2017-06-17 at 10:02 AM, betsy said:

As far as I know.....the first Commandment is the most important of all Commandments.

As far as I know ... the Commandments are fiction along with your deity

On 2017-06-17 at 10:02 AM, betsy said:

I imagine, if there will be anyone who'll be tortured for all eternity, it will be His creation who show not only rejection, but such contempt for their Creator.

I have contempt for any idea for which there is no rational expaination nor proof of existance. Ghosts, fairies, leprechauns, a creator deity who loves us unconditionally, but will torture us for eternity for using the rational mind he gave us.

On 2017-06-17 at 10:02 AM, betsy said:

You're kneeling down and praying before a god?  Make sure it's before The TRUE God.

I don't kneel and pray. That's kind of the point.

Why would your "TRUE God" require you to kneel and pray anyway? That seems like a ... personality flaw.

[DogOnPorch]

That's it...I'm callin' a flood.

---God

Edited June 18, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[TTM]

On 2017-06-17 at 10:04 AM, betsy said:

You got no so-called evidence!

In fact, it's the other way around.   When presented by evidence showing your beliefs are false, ignore (refuse to process) the evidence and retreat back to your safe space.

I have the entire body of science, which along with secularism, is responsible for the relative peace, wealth, and high standard of living of modern western societies as evidence.  You have a book of dubious origin and a religion to go along with which was responible for the conditions in the West in the middle ages.  The Middle East has a similar book and religion which is responsible for the current conditions there.

I have responded to your "evidence", whenever you presented any.  I am still waiting for a direct response for many of the points I raised, for example the issue with your "flood" layers not being mixed, despite having raised it on multiple occasions.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, TTM said:

I have the entire body of science, which along with secularism, is responsible for the relative peace, wealth, and high standard of living of modern western societies as evidence.  You have a book of dubious origin and a religion to go along with which was responible for the conditions in the West in the middle ages.  The Middle East has a similar book and religion which is responsible for the current conditions there.

I have responded to your "evidence", whenever you presented any.  I am still waiting for a direct response for many of the points I raised, for example the issue with your "flood" layers not being mixed, despite having raised it on multiple occasions.

 

Considering how amazing the actual story of evolution is, one would think that any sane religion would be doing its best to incorporate the incredible findings...but no...many resist.

The Carboniferous Period is my personal fav...500 ft tall horsetails?? Dragonflies 4 feet across? That's soooo frickin' cool.

[TTM]

Blackbird and Betsy, one of you is arguing for a literal interpretation of creation, the other figurative.  It would be nice if you guys could get your story straight, especially since the point of this thread was how perfect and consistent the message of the bible is

[TTM]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Considering how amazing the actual story of evolution is, one would think that any sane religion would be doing its best to incorporate the incredible findings...but no...many resist.

The Carboniferous Period is my personal fav...500 ft tall horsetails?? Dragonflies 4 feet across? That's soooo frickin' cool.

Actual science has given me so many moments of awe and wonder.  I really don't see the need for fairy tales

Edited June 18, 2017 by TTM

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, TTM said:

Blackbird and Betsy, one of you is arguing for a literal interpretation of creation, the other figurative.  It would be nice if you guys could get your story straight, especially since the point of this thread was how perfect and consistent the message of the bible is

 

LaFleur goes up the wing...he shoots...HE SCORES!

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, TTM said:

Actual science has given me so many moments of awe and wonder.  I really don't see the need for fairy tails

 

Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill...science rulez.

Have you seen the latest pictures from Jupiter? Downright spellbinding. Such detail...and to think it all started with Galileo pointing his scope at it...

[TTM]

Yes, I recently watched a video clip showing the clouds in motion ... stunning

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, TTM said:

Yes, I recently watched a video clip showing the clouds in motion ... stunning

 

If you're into that sort of stuff, might I suggest:

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Pulls no punches. I've built a number of mods for it, myself...under another name, of course.

https://www.orbithangar.com/

[TTM]

Looks cool, I may check it out.  Have to get my computer up and running again though.  Right now I'm cell phone only

Edited June 18, 2017 by TTM

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, TTM said:

Looks cool, I may check it out

 

Orbiter is 100% free...written in machine language...doesn't alter the registry...runs right out of the folder. Sound is a separate package (see links). I've been involved in development and testing since about 2004. Doesn't take a supercomputer to run. It doesn't hold your hand, however....RTFM is in full effect.

Another great freebie...Celestia. Models the visible Universe...tons of extras, as well. 

https://celestiaproject.net/

There are similar projects...but this is the oldest.

Goodies here...

http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/

Betsy and blackbird might well enjoy these as well...but they'll have to suspend belief a bit to enjoy them to the fullest....

 

 

[JamesHackerMP]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

That's it...I'm callin' a flood.

---God

LOL

Sorry I left rather abruptly, I apologize.  I respect the fact that you have strong beliefs, Betsy, I just cannot agree on your absolutist interpretation of it.  We were discussing, a few pages ago, about Bible translations.  While I don't intend to read the entire book you showed me, I'm assuming you read it; so could you give me a precis of why exactly bibles other than the KJV are "corrupted"? I have heard that before and, while not a biblical scholar, I'm a little skeptical.  Every Christian sect wants to think that their translation is the superior one.  But how do you know that the manuscripts from which various bibles are translated are "corrupted" or "accurate"? All are copies of copies of copies.  Jesus didn't write anything in his own hand.

By the way, "True" God? Which one is that?

[JamesHackerMP]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill, Bill...science rulez.

Have you seen the latest pictures from Jupiter? Downright spellbinding. Such detail...and to think it all started with Galileo pointing his scope at it...

Yeah, Galileo got in some deep sh** for that, didn't he? Seems not much has changed, in some quarters.

Edited June 18, 2017 by JamesHackerMP

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Yeah, Galileo got in some deep sh** for that, didn't he? Seems not much has changed, in some quarters.

Ten years in jail and a thousand lashes, wasn't it?

Or was that the blogger in Pakistan...?

[betsy]

6 hours ago, TTM said:

As far as I know ... the Commandments are fiction along with your deity

 

I'm simply responding to what you said.  You brought up God and eternal punishment.   Here....

 

Quote

Because remember, God likes to have tortured for eternity those creations of His that would prefer to use their "God given" rational mind and free will

 

You're giving your argument along the Christian viewpoint, so expect a response along that line.  Cheeeesh....

Edited June 18, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

6 hours ago, GostHacked said:

But does that mean the creation has intimate knowledge of the creator?

We know and understand only what the Creator wants us to know and understand.

[DogOnPorch]

3 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Yeah, Galileo got in some deep sh** for that, didn't he? Seems not much has changed, in some quarters.

 

House arrest...but yes, indeed.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

We know and understand only what the Creator wants us to know and understand.

 

What does that even mean, betsy? 

New things are discovered EVERYDAY that further reduce your old Bronze Age deity to the gaps...as it were.

[TTM]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

You're giving your argument along the Christian viewpoint, so expect a response along that line.  Cheeeesh....

I pointed out the contradiction of a supposedly Good and Just supernatural being that hides his existance, apparently so that he can have eternally tortured those of his creations that use the rational mind he gave them to come to the conclusion he doesn't exist.

The response "they can be eternally tortured because they are not blindly following some random document of dubious origin" kind of misses the point.

Edited June 19, 2017 by TTM

[blackbird]

9 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

LOL

Sorry I left rather abruptly, I apologize.  I respect the fact that you have strong beliefs, Betsy, I just cannot agree on your absolutist interpretation of it.  We were discussing, a few pages ago, about Bible translations.  While I don't intend to read the entire book you showed me, I'm assuming you read it; so could you give me a precis of why exactly bibles other than the KJV are "corrupted"? I have heard that before and, while not a biblical scholar, I'm a little skeptical.  Every Christian sect wants to think that their translation is the superior one.  But how do you know that the manuscripts from which various bibles are translated are "corrupted" or "accurate"? All are copies of copies of copies.  Jesus didn't write anything in his own hand.

By the way, "True" God? Which one is that?

There are countless articles on that.  Basically it comes down to the fact the KJV 1611 is the only version based on the received text for the New Testament.  The modern versions are generally based on two corrupt manuscripts called Sinaticus (which was found in a waste paper basket in a monastery in the Sinai in late 1800s.  The Vaticanus was discovered or retrieved from the Vatican library I believe.  Two heretical churchman in around 1880 used these corrupt manuscripts to produce either a new New Testament or a new Greek Text to produce the English Standard Version.  Generally modern versions translators believe these corrupt manuscripts to be more accurate than the received text.  The received text is the collection of Greek New Testament manuscripts believed to be handed down through ages and used for the  KJV completed in 1611.  The modern versions do not follow the received text.  The received text was a collection of Greek manuscripts which scholars brought to western Europe when the Muslims conquered the Byzantine empire.  Since the original (which no longer exist) manuscripts for the N.T. were written in Greek, it is believe these Byzantine manuscripts are accurate.  The Trinitarian Bible Society website may have some articles on this.  Also google the two churchmen Westcott and Hort and find critques on them.  The argument for the two corrupt manuscripts is that they are of a little older date than extant manuscripts.  However, they disagree with the received text in thousands of places.  Age does not necessarily prove anything because they could have been rejected by scholars in the early centuries but left in storage someplace.

http://graceway.com/articles/article_025.html

https://www.scribd.com/document/144266295/Jesus-Is-Savior-Westcott-and-Hort-Exposed

Edited June 19, 2017 by blackbird

[Rue]

Betsy I appreciate where you are coming from gospel and spreading the news is meant as a good thing.

In my world the voice of God as you would call it must come from within, not the voice of another human telling me what I should think.

Its a basic gnostic Christian, Jewish and Hindu concept also used by Taoists and Budhists and others who sometimes refer to that voice as

self awareness, insight,mindfullness.

 

Sorry when someone tells me what I should believe, I believe that exercise however well intended is an act of spiritual molestation. I believe each spirit must make its own decisions as to the direction it will move in. I believe the essence of life is the gift of free choice and that acting out of the free choice through independent thought recreates the life force that continues to spread life. I believe if you try control that direction, that free choice in others, it causes a ripple effect that represses true choice that until corrected injures the world.

I personally believe the person you believe was sent to the world to heal it wanted people to decide as individuals by looking within. I don't personally think the gospels attributed to him many centuries later are NOT necessarily accurate. He was preaching Teekam Olem, healing the world through selflessness which must be an individual chouce to make. That's my respectful opinion.

So quite frankly we probably agree on core values but I don't believe in the process of converting people and telling them how what they should believe.

I think the strongest statement I can make is to say nothing and just act accordingly. If people see from our actions and deeds not our words, how we live, that I believe is the strongest message we can give as to how to be good people.

I know you understand me. I just don't want you to think I scorn your words. I don't. I know where your hallowed ground is and I would not walk on it but I would help tend it if you asked. I just believe ultimately your garden begins and ends with the choices you make not me for you.  

Edited June 19, 2017 by Rue

[hot enough]

3 hours ago, Rue said:

Sorry when someone tells me what I should believe, I believe that exercise however well intended is an act of spiritual molestation. I believe each spirit must make its own decisions as to the direction it will move in. I believe the essence of life is the gift of free choice and that acting out of the free choice through independent thought recreates the life force that continues to spread life

And yet you actively support those who have been denying that same freedom to hundreds of millions around the world. And you'll probably suggest that you aren't being hypocritical.