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Many atheists are excellent, but atheism itself is hurting the West


blackbird

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15 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I did. 

 

As religious control declined in the West, humans were afforded more rights.  

In countries where there is still a large religious influence, they don't have it as well.

But if you think we should all bow down to Christianity for giving us our rights, I think you're wrong.  Religion most often fights against (and continues to fight against) any progress in society.

I didn't say you should bow down to christianity.  All I am saying is Judeo-Christian teachings influence society down through the ages to give us the freedom and compassionate, fair society we have today compared with the rest of the world.  

You are correct in saying religious control declined and gave us more freedom.  But that was the Roman Catholic church control you are talking about.  It ruled down through the ages as a kind of theocracy.  The Reformation delivered us out of that.  Then individual freedom developed with the existence of Protestant church in western Europe and Britain.  Rome hated to see this happening.  They lost control.  They opposed learning, freedom of individuals to read the bible themselves and interpret it themselves.  They burned some people at the stake for rebelling against the authority of Rome.  But the enlightenment had arrived in the 16, 17, 18th centures and Rome tried but could not stop it.  People began to respect the right of the individual to believe as he wished or not believe anything.  Freedom of speech, freedom of religion all came about after the Reformation and enlightenment.  Democratic parliaments developed and that idea spread to America with the Puritans and others.

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22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Then can you explain why the western countries that have a nominal christianity or Judeo-Christian culture are far ahead of the rest of the world in terms of respect of individual rights freedoms, and more prosperity for the average person than the rest of the non-christian world?  

That's a fallacy.  The onus is on you to prove you point, not on others to disprove your point.

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5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's a fallacy.  The onus is on you to prove you point, not on others to disprove your point.

I don't think anyone would dispute the west is far more prosperous than Africa, the middle east, India, the Phillipines, central and south America.  Does it need to be proven?  Many of them live in hovels, have no cars, no supermarkets loaded with all the best food in the world, no highways, no rapid transit, no nice homes, or apartments.  The examples are endless.

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18 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I didn't say you should bow down to christianity.  All I am saying is Judeo-Christian teachings influence society down through the ages to give us the freedom and compassionate, fair society we have today compared with the rest of the world.  

Christianity was dragged kicking and screaming into allowing human rights in the West.  The same way Islam is kicking and screaming against progress.

To now say that Chistianity is responsible for how good we have it in the West, is overstating.

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11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't think anyone would dispute the west is far more prosperous than Africa, the middle east, India, the Phillipines, central and south America.  Does it need to be proven?  Many of them live in hovels, have no cars, no supermarkets loaded with all the best food in the world, no highways, no rapid transit, no nice homes, or apartments.  The examples are endless.

Right.  Yes, it does need to be proven.  The side with the religion you attribute the 'cause' to also won all the wars, so....

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Right.  Yes, it does need to be proven.  The side with the religion you attribute the 'cause' to also won all the wars, so....

But why did it win all the wars?

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Right.  Yes, it does need to be proven.  The side with the religion you attribute the 'cause' to also won all the wars, so....

I'm not sure what needs to proven.   I am simply saying western civilization is far advanced in terms of prosperity, respect for individual human rights, existence of democratic institutions, fair judicial system, educational systems, health, and military strength.  You will notice these successes are in the countries that most embraced the Reformation and Judeo-Christian culture and principles.   These  countries have the most respect for individual's rights, social systems to provide for those in need, those with health problems, etc. The rest of the world which were not built on these principles are struggling in poverty, revolutions, crime, barbaric religions practices, widespread murders, civil wars, etc.  I think it is even fair to say that Roman Catholic countries have not advanced nearly as much as those countries where the reformation took place.  Just look at Mexico with it's drug wars, reversion by many people to bizarre religion (Miurte) ,  central America, south America, all in poverty, drug crime, murder, and unstable political institutions.   Italy, Spain, Greece and eastern European countries have not done that well either, although they are far better off than the third world countries.

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11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

1) I'm not sure what needs to proven.  

2) I think it is even fair to say that Roman Catholic countries have not advanced nearly as much as those countries where the reformation took place 

1) That Christianity is the root cause of prosperity in the West.

2) Cite please.

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31 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Better weapons.  Do I really have to tell you this ?

Why did it have better weapons? Why did it have better technology/

Edited by Argus
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55 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) That Christianity is the root cause of prosperity in the West.

2) Cite please.

The book Roman Catholicism by Loraine Boettner.  Chapter XVIII Intolerance-Bigotry-Persecution

  While some of this is not so evident since Vatican II in 1965 and in countries where RCC is in the minority,  in some countries with high RC population there are still these three problems.  You will notice countries with a high RC population have major problems as in Mexico, central and south America as I pointed out.  Spain and Italy and eastern European countries.  Their attitude toward non-Catholics has softened somewhat since Vatican II in the spirit of ecumenism.  Instead of heretics, non RCs are called separated brethren.

Some countries that are high percentage RC have huge problems,  Haiti, Mexico.  Cuba has the communist revolution and lost their fundamental rights.

"Latin America is Christianity's most shocking failure" (P.42 The Westminster Press, Philadelphia; 1944)

There is a world of difference between Roman Catholicism of Latin America and catholicism of Europe and North America.  Europe had the Reformation and the reformed churches, protestant churches went to North America with the settler.  The reformation ideas and enlightenment therefore spread through much of northern Europe and came to North America.  But not to Latin America.  Roman Catholic Spain in the 1400s, 1500s, sent their military and priests to Latin America to make slaves out of the native people and extort their gold and ship it to Spain.  The Conquistadors.  Latin America was fully exploited for what Spain could get out of it.

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15 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Liking or disliking any particular organized religion has nothing to do with the idea of whether there is a god or not.

Not talking about whether there is a god or not.  You have to go back and read what we have been talking about today.  It's not a debate about God.

The main subject is atheism is hurting the west.

AS part of that I have been explaining how the west has advanced far beyond the rest of the world because of it's Judeo-Christian culture. I can't repeat it all now.   If interested you can scroll back a bit to see the jist of it.

Edited by blackbird
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11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Not talking about whether there is a god or not.  You have to go back and read what we have been talking about today.  It's not a debate about God.

The main subject is atheism is hurting the west.

AS part of that I have been explaining how the west has advanced far beyond the rest of the world because of it's Judeo-Christian culture. I can't repeat it all now.   If interested you can scroll back a bit to see the jist of it.

It is a discussion about how deeply evil the god people have been, how these god people are content to murder tens of millions to satisfy the greed of an even more deeply evil group of god people.  Conrad Black is one of those evil god people because he has been avidly supporting these even more deeply evil god people.

Edited by hot enough
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19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are theories around that.  But I haven't read one that attributes Christianity as the root cause of better weapons.

The answer is the west has a far more advanced civilization technologically and educationally than the rest of the world.  Naturally with all the scientists and technology I can understand why.  But it all comes back to the benefits of the Judeo-Christian culture of certain western nations such as Germany, UK, U.S.A., Canada, Australia and others. These countries have prospered and developed far better than the rest of the world.

As an example, after WW2, some of the best scientists (Werner Von Braun), Albert Einstein, immigrated to the U.S. and joined the space program.   U.S. offered freedoms that many other countries don't have, because it is built on western christian principles developed down through time.  While that was going on the USSR and China adopted Communism and Stalin imposed a very dark dictatorship with no freedoms.

 

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5 hours ago, Goddess said:

That's my point.

If it were up to religion, we wouldn't have the advances we do - women would still have no rights, homosexuals would still be being tossed off rooftops.

 

Goddess,   Respect for women and homosexuals are christian principles.  There are some religions which do not respect women or homosexuals.  There are even some countries that imprison or punish homosexuals in Africa or other places.  That is not  based on christian teaching.  It is a perversion.   Christians respect individuals although they will not agree with homosexual practices.  Christian teachings means respect for the dignity of the individual.  People who do not respect women or homosexuals as persons are not really following the christian faith.  Christians do not support abortion and do not see it as a matter of respect for women.  Christians view human life of the unborn baby as sacred.   That is another whole topic though.

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1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Because "it" had been stealing the wealth from other nations and keeping the people from advancing. 

How did it do that? I mean, if we go back about a thousand years or so we find that Europe is relatively poor and unorganized and being repeatedly attacked by the Muslim world, which is richer and more technologically advanced. So you're meme about the evil wealthy elites of the West simply isn't a workable answer.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are theories around that.  But I haven't read one that attributes Christianity as the root cause of better weapons.

Well, there were two major religions around at that time. The other was Islam, which was their main enemy, which was more advanced militarily, scientifically and technologically while Europe was in the dark ages. And then it all changed. Europe began to thrive and to develop technologically and scientifically while the Muslim world stagnated. The reason is religion. For example, the fact that Christianity permitted banking (with interest) allowed for major projects to be developed. Islam did not permit the loaning of money for interest, so no banks developed to finance projects. In addition, interest in science and technology was discouraged under Islam. Even the science they had developed earlier was only used for religious purposes, to properly track the Prophet's birthdate, for example, and properly plot the exact direction of Mecca for prayers. So while science and technology developed under Christianity it failed to do so under Islam.

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3 minutes ago, Argus said:

 The other was Islam, which was their main enemy, which was more advanced militarily, scientifically and technologically while Europe was in the dark ages. And then it all changed. Europe began to thrive and to develop technologically and scientifically while the Muslim world stagnated. The reason is religion. For example, the fact that Christianity permitted banking (with interest) allowed for major projects to be developed. Islam did not permit the loaning of money for interest, so no banks developed to finance projects. In addition, interest in science and technology was discouraged under Islam. Even the science they had developed earlier was only used for religious purposes, to properly track the Prophet's birthdate, for example, and properly plot the exact direction of Mecca for prayers. So while science and technology developed under Christianity it failed to do so under Islam.

Christianity also had many internecine wars in Europe...all good.

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39 minutes ago, Argus said:

How did it do that? I mean, if we go back about a thousand years or so we find that Europe is relatively poor and unorganized and being repeatedly attacked by the Muslim world, which is richer and more technologically advanced. So you're meme about the evil wealthy elites of the West simply isn't a workable answer.

If we shorten that time period to a realistic one, we find that all the European countries and its ancestors in the new world were responsible for raping and pillaging the whole world. 

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