Changing the Constitution - Turkiye

[Argus]

17 minutes ago, marcus said:

I disagree. The right to free expression should be the core of any democracy. No matter how offensive the expression might be to some.

Perhaps the first time I've ever agreed with Marcus on anything...

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Of course it's limited. Slander, libel, incitement, fire in theatres, etc.  It's not limited such that offence is proscribed, though.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  We certainly do not have to be careful as you describe. There is a difference between manners and rights.  It really doesn't matter if it is "wrong".  

I've already stated the forum can do what it wants, right or wrong. They frequently do. 

Yes a forum can do what it wants.  But this forum has guidelines and how they are interpreted depends on the moderator's interpretation.

There is no such thing as unlimited freedom to offend or unlimited freedom of speech. 

A country such as Canada has laws which limit freedom of speech in certain ways.  I might not agree with them and think they are too strict, but evidently they do exist.

A forum has it's own separate rules which may actually be more strict than government's laws.  A forum is like a private organization and the moderators can decide to ban someone for breaking the rules, possibly when they think there is  more than one breach of the guidelines.  Technically, according to government laws, there is a certain flexibility in causing offense to someone, but a forum is likely to e more restrictive in that regard.  Each case is different and it would have to be weighed on it's own. 

[-TSS-]

Erdogan got what he wanted? Oh dear! Who would have ever believed that?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes a forum can do what it wants.  But this forum has guidelines and how they are interpreted depends on the moderator's interpretation.

There is no such thing as unlimited freedom to offend or unlimited freedom of speech. 

A country such as Canada has laws which limit freedom of speech in certain ways.  I might not agree with them and think they are too strict, but evidently they do exist.

A forum has it's own separate rules which may actually be more strict than government's laws.  A forum is like a private organization and the moderators can decide to ban someone for breaking the rules, possibly when they think there is  more than one breach of the guidelines.  Technically, according to government laws, there is a certain flexibility in causing offense to someone, but a forum is likely to e more restrictive in that regard.  Each case is different and it would have to be weighed on it's own. 

Yes, I don't think there much to disagree with there.  I believe in the unlimited freedom to offend, but I don't think that is the same as unlimited freedom of speech.  Then we are getting into legal defintions as mentioned previously.

Strange expression, "the unlimited freedom to offend".  Who should be the arbiter?  You?  If I know you, you would probably lean towards blasphemy as being offensive, whereby anti abortion demonstrations showing uncensored pictures of the effect on foetuses might not be so.  There are those for whom the opposite is true.  I don't care either way.  That's what it means to support freedom of speech.

[-TSS-]

There was the famous Ugandan leader years ago who said that everyone has the freedom of speech but he cant guarantee freedom after speech.

[Guest]

Just now, -TSS- said:

There was the famous Ugandan leader years ago who said that everyone has the freedom of speech but he cant guarantee freedom after speech.

That's great.  Was that Amin?  Who knew he had a sense of humour?

[blackbird]

29 minutes ago, marcus said:

I disagree. The right to free expression should be the core of any democracy. No matter how offensive the expression might be to some.

While that is true in principle, in reality in Canada, there are limits to freedom of expression. 

Another thing to consider, how far one is willing to agree to freedom of expression may depend on who's ox is being gored.   I have found in reality, people are in favour of freedom of expression if they agree with what's being said, but are not as enthusiastic about freedom of expression if their point of view is being attacked.  I have seen this often debates involving moral issues.  When someone with a religious viewpoint speaks, he is often dismissed or rebuked for daring to raise anything from a religious viewpoint.  It seems freedom of speech only applies to certain points of view.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

While that is true in principle, in reality in Canada, there are limits to freedom of expression. 

Another thing to consider, how far one is willing to agree to freedom of expression may depend on who's ox is being gored.   I have found in reality, people are in favour of freedom of expression if they agree with what's being said, but are not as enthusiastic about freedom of expression if their point of view is being attacked.  I have seen this often debates involving moral issues.  When someone with a religious viewpoint speaks, he is often dismissed or rebuked for daring to raise anything from a religious viewpoint.  It seems freedom of speech only applies to certain points of view.

No, that's wrong.  The right to freedom of expression extends to everyone, regardless of views.  There can be no expectation that those views will not be challenged, refuted, or ridiculed, though.  That too comes under the same umbrella.

[marcus]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

While that is true in principle, in reality in Canada, there are limits to freedom of expression. 

Agreed in regards to Canada. I've never supported to the limits Canada has brought in.

That said, how would Canadians feel if people were jailed for expressing their thoughts against the government? I just cannot see how anyone can justify muzzling reporters and journalists or anyone for that matter. 

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, marcus said:

I'm glad they found a way to stop the Libyans, Iraqis, Afghanis, Yemenese, Syrians from taking over the West! Thank you!

 

I'm glad they found a way to stop Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria from being taken over by the Soviets,

How you like that one, Komrad

[kactus]

This is a sad moment for Turkey...

From what I understood from a contact in Turkey the referendum results was a tital sham....

It was a split 49:51 with 51 in favour of Erdogan, which now gives him extended power. However....there were 2.5million unsigned papers that were given in favour of Erdogan indicating the results were rigged. These kind of things has happened in the election results in the Middle East. In 2009 Iran slso experienced this when Mahmood Ahmadinejhad won a victory despite the low turn out by the public....This is bad news for Turkey and the democratic principles it was exposed to.

[Wilber]

On 2017-04-15 at 2:09 PM, Altai said:

Its still a democracy. We just take the wheel from two drivers and give it to one driver, we want our bus to go on the road. Still we decide where to go, not the bus driver.


 

But you won't get to vote for a new president for 12 years if at all. Sounds very democratic. 

[Ash74]

24 minutes ago, Wilber said:

But you won't get to vote for a new president for 12 years if at all. Sounds very democratic. 

I read it was a two terms deal at five years a piece after the 2019 election.

That is still gonna mean a ton of journalists and people that don't serve him coffee are gonna spend a lot of time in prison

[Wilber]

7 minutes ago, Ash74 said:

I read it was a two terms deal at five years a piece after the 2019 election.

That is still gonna mean a ton of journalists and people that don't serve him coffee are gonna spend a lot of time in prison

With all his new powers, what do you think the chances are of him losing the 2019 election? Turks may never have to vote again.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Wilber

[Ash74]

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

With all his new powers, what do you think the chances are of him losing the 2019 election? Turks may never have to vote again.

That I agree with you on. His opposition will likely be campaigning from a prison cell.

[Altai]

12 hours ago, marcus said:

The number of journalists who have been jailed is alarming. This is not a characteristic of a democracy.

Do you intend to go scientific or you just want to impose your believes here ? 

You believe that these guys are just "journalists" because of you are told so. I offer you to give me a name to research about him/her but appearently you reject it. We cant communicate in this way and I cant listen your stories all day long.

[Altai]

13 hours ago, marcus said:

I disagree. The right to free expression should be the core of any democracy. No matter how offensive the expression might be to some.

What is the positive sides of insulting someones when it comes to democracy ? What kind of benefits it has ? It should have some benefits that has an un-ignorable effects on the positive development of democracy. 

[Altai]

13 hours ago, Ash74 said:

We all agree to follow the rules of this forum or we are kicked out. That is fair. Nobody held a gun to our heads to sign up.

But if I walk away from my computer and tell my wife I think so and so is a moron than no crime has been committed. That is free speech. This is a private forum for which we all agreed to follow certain rules out of respect. I think Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau are both idiots amd I have a legal right to say it. But in Turkey it is illegal to say that very thing about the president.

Altai feels feelings matter. Ok. But she has called people terrorists and they have not be convicted in any court. Is that not an insult?

Should that not be illegal?

This is not a private forum. This is a private owned public forum. Its open to anyone. The admins and moderators of this forum recognizes the logic and they prohibits insults. Because they logically recognizes that insults has no positive effects on freedom of speech and therefore its not a part of freedom of speech.

[Altai]

10 hours ago, kactus said:

It was a split 49:51 with 51 in favour of Erdogan, which now gives him extended power.

For example, what are his "extended" powers and what are the differences when compared to ex-constitution ? Please quote it from official sources. I really dont know, I am just interested to learn.

 

Quote

However....there were 2.5million unsigned papers that were given in favour of Erdogan indicating the results were rigged.

Can you please prove your claim ? So yes there were unsigned papers that election officials forget to push a stamp and according to the election laws, they will be accepted as long as its not proven that these un-stamped papers comes from outside of the election building. Another point is many official observers from various parties and political backgrounds stands in and out of the voting centers. There is no chance for someone to bring a paper from outside and put it in the voting boxes.

So your conspiracy theory needs some proofs and evidences. Please share if you have any. We will see more conspiracy theories because democracy didnt work for someone's interests. 


Kactus, you will be ignored if you cant show a proof for your claims.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Altai

[Altai]

8 hours ago, Wilber said:

But you won't get to vote for a new president for 12 years if at all. Sounds very democratic. 

You are lying. According to the new constitution, presidency elections are done once in every 5 years. In the ex-constitution, it was once in every 4 years. 

Link: http://bit.ly/2hU58aX  (Article 77)


You will be ignored if you cant show me an official document that proves its done in every 12 years. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Altai

[Altai]

8 hours ago, Ash74 said:

I read it was a two terms deal at five years a piece after the 2019 election.

That is still gonna mean a ton of journalists and people that don't serve him coffee are gonna spend a lot of time in prison

Ash, I think I should put you in ignore again. You posted a link of a news done by a Western newspapers with a misleading title. You didnt even read or understand its content, I showed you the related part that the person is detained for insult crime. You still meant that its detained for not serving coffee. I really have no tolerance for dishonest persons. You are also supposed to be honest in forum rules. You are ignored, bye...

Edited April 17, 2017 by Altai

[kactus]

19 minutes ago, Altai said:

For example, what are his "extended" powers and what are the differences when compared to ex-constitution ? Please quote it from official sources. I really dont know, I am just interested to learn.

The news is still enfolding in relation to this

 

Quote

Can you please prove your claim ? So yes there were unsigned papers that election officials forget to push a stamp and according to the election laws, they will be accepted as long as its not proven that these un-stamped papers comes from outside of the election building. Another point is many official observers from various parties and political backgrounds stands in and out of the voting centers. There is no chance for someone to bring a paper from outside and put it in the voting boxes.

I don't have to prove you anything especially in a country where the freedom of speech and journalism is limited to what the president says....There were students, activists and teachers that are not allowed to go back to Turkey anymore because their university heads was against the policies of Erdogan during the coup....The news I shared here is coming from the horse's  mouth...Individuals and turkish family that are dissatisfied with the results of the referendum because of those 2.5 unsigned documents....These are large numbers and certainly eschew the results of referendum.....The very fact that you acknowledge this shows that YOU know very well what is going on there but because of your affiliation to Erdogan's party are unwilling to listen to any other news

 

Quote

So your conspiracy theory needs some proofs and evidences. Please share if you have any. We will see more conspiracy theories because democracy didnt work for someone's interests. 

Spare me the conspiracy theories for hearing things that does not mould to your ears......I am the last person on this forum you can accuse of conspiracy theory! For you I suggest the first step to the recognition that something is wrong is to undo your own fabricated, indoctrinated ideologies...Then you are susceptible to listen and learn....When the power gets into you then there's corruption at every level. If you try to defend a government at any cost then I will wonder about your own affiliation with that party or group. For sure people also do get indoctrinated to believe their government is doing the right thing. This is just not confined to muslims. I have seen zionist jews doing the same when supporting their corrupted government at any length....

[Altai]

39 minutes ago, kactus said:

The news is still enfolding in relation to this

 

I don't have to prove you anything especially in a country where the freedom of speech and journalism is limited to what the president says....There were students, activists and teachers that are not allowed to go back to Turkey anymore because their university heads was against the policies of Erdogan during the coup....The news I shared here is coming from the horse's  mouth...Individuals and turkish family that are dissatisfied with the results of the referendum because of those 2.5 unsigned documents....These are large numbers and certainly eschew the results of referendum.....The very fact that you acknowledge this shows that YOU know very well what is going on there but because of your affiliation to Erdogan's party are unwilling to listen to any other news

 

Spare me the conspiracy theories for hearing things that does not mould to your ears......I am the last person on this forum you can accuse of conspiracy theory! For you I suggest the first step to the recognition that something is wrong is to undo your own fabricated, indoctrinated ideologies...Then you are susceptible to listen and learn....When the power gets into you then there's corruption at every level. If you try to defend a government at any cost then I will wonder about your own affiliation with that party or group. For sure people also do get indoctrinated to believe their government is doing the right thing. This is just not confined to muslims. I have seen zionist jews doing the same when supporting their corrupted government at any length....

Kactus, you are making claims and you reject to back up your claims, because its highly probable you have zero knowledge of what you are talking about. You are just talking based on your imagine World which is supported by the false propaganda machines in your countries. 

If there is no logic, so science, I am not there. I tried my best to communicate with you but you just reject it. Now I will put you in ignore, sorry for you, bye...

Edited April 17, 2017 by Altai

[Altai]

Another contradictory act of the people who defends freedom of insult;

1) They illogically defends that they have right to insult others and they claim that others should control their negative feelings, should be like a robot against insults directed at them.

2) Insults are also an outward appearance of negative feelings. Why the people who claims having right to insult others dont control their negative feelings as they recommend others to do ?

This is a contradiction and hypocrisy.

[kactus]

.....Moving swiftly on.....

Interesting perspective on Turkey since the inception of Kemalism aka Ataturk or the father of the Turks.....

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/16/rip-turkey-1921-2017/

The end game for Erdogan is to bolster the islamic roots back into the country. Power corrupts and his attempt to close the final chapter on the modernity of the history of the country is in near sight.