Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, marcus said: By name. Look at how freedom of speech is on a downhill in Turkey. Again, I understand the West's constant meddling in other countries, but you also lose when you take away freedom from people. The best way to tackle outside corruption and influence is through educating the masses and creating an environment where people trust the government and the authorities instead of fearing them. The more you squeeze the people and take away their freedoms, the higher the chances of the influence of the outside groups becoming successful. Can you give a person as an example who been restricted to speak freely in Turkiye ? I also have asked to @Ash74 and he gave two criminals as an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 16 minutes ago, Altai said: Right not to be offended ??? So this is like saying "I will shot you but try not to die, you dont have right to die". These insult laws are usually applied for deliberate personal attacks Anyone could insult in traffic when they face with a mistake, its a momentary reaction and is not planned or deliberate personal attack. These kind of details are not written in the constitution and it should be written. It's not comparable to shooting someone, or dying. To my mind, a person has no right to never feel offended. Regardless of what I say, and regardless of the level of offence you take, I should not be restricted in any way from saying it. Legally. If the people who run this site want to censor me, that's their right. It's their site. What if you were to relate the traffic story on here and I was to agree with the other party, and reiterate how dumb you had been, and for good measure, say that women shouldn't be allowed to drive anyway? Jail time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 15 minutes ago, Altai said: Can you give a person as an example who been restricted to speak freely in Turkiye ? I also have asked to @Ash74 and he gave two criminals as an example. Sure. Link “Keeping 148 journalists and media workers in jail and closing down 169 media and publishing outlets under the state of emergency shows how Turkey is deliberately flouting basic principles of human rights and rule of law central to democracy.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, bcsapper said: It's not comparable to shooting someone, or dying. To my mind, a person has no right to never feel offended. Regardless of what I say, and regardless of the level of offence you take, I should not be restricted in any way from saying it. Legally. If the people who run this site want to censor me, that's their right. It's their site. What if you were to relate the traffic story on here and I was to agree with the other party, and reiterate how dumb you had been, and for good measure, say that women shouldn't be allowed to drive anyway? Jail time? We have to speak scientific. This is why I was asked you that whether or not we are agree on being insulted will cause someone to feel bad and will directly harm her/his life. If you say "no we are not agree", then I will try to put scientific articles on the table. Here we are supposed to share informations, I am not interested with believes or your mind. I am interested with facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 1 minute ago, marcus said: Sure. Link “Keeping 148 journalists and media workers in jail and closing down 169 media and publishing outlets under the state of emergency shows how Turkey is deliberately flouting basic principles of human rights and rule of law central to democracy.” Can you give me a single name from these 148 "journalists" who have been sentenced for "speaking" ? I think you talk about an issue which you dont have enough information but you only have stories written by newspapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Altai said: We have to speak scientific. This is why I was asked you that whether or not we are agree on being insulted will cause someone to feel bad and will directly harm her/his life. If you say "no we are not agree", then I will try to put scientific articles on the table. Here we are supposed to share informations, I am not interested with believes or your mind. I am interested with facts. I don't know how you can scientifically categorise feelings, or the harm from hurt feelings. What do you think of England? Edited April 16, 2017 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I don't know how you can scientifically categorise feelings, or the harm from hurt feelings. What do you think of England? Here an example article; http://bit.ly/1PyugNu You would insult me if it was no affect on me but as I said, we are not robots, we have feelings. We dont have right to harm other people because we does not like them or does not like something about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 49 minutes ago, Altai said: Right not to be offended ??? So this is like saying "I will shot you but try not to die, you dont have right to die". These insult laws are usually applied for deliberate personal attacks Anyone could insult in traffic when they face with a mistake, its a momentary reaction and is not planned or deliberate personal attack. These kind of details are not written in the constitution and it should be written. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/turkey-president-erdogan-tea-insult-arrest-man-a7497101.html The man was arrested for saying he would not serve the president. Look at what you call our "so called democracies". People insult our leaders in North America with great insults and comedy. Our guys and gals are just made of sterner stuff I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, Altai said: Here an example article; http://bit.ly/1PyugNu You would insult me if it was no affect on me but as I said, we are not robots, we have feelings. We dont have right to harm other people because we does not like them or does not like something about them. Yeah, that's too bad, but we're not arguing about effects, we're arguing about rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ash74 said: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/turkey-president-erdogan-tea-insult-arrest-man-a7497101.html The man was arrested for saying he would not serve the president. Look at what you call our "so called democracies". People insult our leaders in North America with great insults and comedy. Our guys and gals are just made of sterner stuff I guess Nope, please read your own article before copy-paste it. Quote Turkish authorities have arrested the cafeteria manager of the opposition Cumhuriyet newspaper for insulting the president after he said he would not serve tea to Tayyip Erdogan. So he is arrested for insulting. The newspaper which you give link is also trying to create logical illusion. This is how they are washing your brains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, Altai said: Nope, please read your own article before copy-paste it. So he is arrested for insulting. The newspaper which you give link is also trying to create logical illusion. This is how they are washing your brains. But he was arrested for such a trivial matter. That is the point. HE WAS ARRESTED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, Altai said: Can you give me a single name from these 148 "journalists" who have been sentenced for "speaking" ? I think you talk about an issue which you dont have enough information but you only have stories written by newspapers. I haven't put a lot of time in researching the situation there, so sure, I can always learn more. Here are some names: Aslı Erdoğan, Ahmet Altan, Kadri Gürsel, Necmiye Alpay; Erdem Gül, Ceyda Karan, Can Dündar, Hatice Kamer; Refik Tekin, Hanım Büşra Erdal, Nedim Oruç, Nazlı Ilıcak These are from the link I provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Yeah, that's too bad, but we're not arguing about effects, we're arguing about rights. So now we are agree that it has bad effects on people, so it harm people and their life in a negative manner. Your freedom ends when you start to harm others. You cant throw your garbages in the middle of the road, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant scream in the middle of the road all day long, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant cut the threes in a park, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant drink alcohol in public, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant insult people, because you are not allowed to harm others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Ash74 said: But he was arrested for such a trivial matter. That is the point. HE WAS ARRESTED. Thats the point, you cant insult others, please read the information exchange (one sided) between me and @bcsapper to learn more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, Altai said: Thats the point, you cant insult others, please read the information exchange (one sided) between me and @bcsapper to learn more. I did. But as a leader of a nation He/She should be able to have a thicker skin. We can stand outside the White House or House of Commons with a giant sign saying "Our Leader is an idiot" and that is our right. A guy say's he wont serve tea and you say it was the newspaper fault for publishing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 If you want more names, please start on page 76 in this report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Altai said: So now we are agree that it has bad effects on people, so it harm people and their life in a negative manner. Your freedom ends when you start to harm others. You cant throw your garbages in the middle of the road, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant scream in the middle of the road all day long, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant cut the threes in a park, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant drink alcohol in public, because you are not allowed to harm others. You cant insult people, because you are not allowed to harm others. We are agreed on effects, just not on rights. We disagree on rights. Not on what they are, as we live in different countries, with different laws, but on what they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, marcus said: I haven't put a lot of time in researching the situation there, so sure, I can always learn more. Here are some names: Aslı Erdoğan, Ahmet Altan, Kadri Gürsel, Necmiye Alpay; Erdem Gül, Ceyda Karan, Can Dündar, Hatice Kamer; Refik Tekin, Hanım Büşra Erdal, Nedim Oruç, Nazlı Ilıcak These are from the link I provided. Choose one you wish or I will choose. I also explained about Can Dundar for @Ash74. I also read the article which caused him to be kicked out from a pro-government newspaper. There happens an event in year 2011, a group of Kurds passes Turkiye-Iraq border illegally and Turkish F-16 drops a bomb on the head. 34 of them dies and 1 survives wounded. This "journalist" defend this illegal border passes in his article and newspaper kicks him away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, Altai said: Choose one you wish or I will choose. I also explained about Can Dundar for @Ash74. I also read the article which caused him to be kicked out from a pro-government newspaper. There happens an event in year 2011, a group of Kurds passes Turkiye-Iraq border illegally and Turkish F-16 drops a bomb on the head. 34 of them dies and 1 survives wounded. This "journalist" defend this illegal border passes in his article and newspaper kicks him away. There is a difference between a newspaper kicking someone out and jailing journalists and activists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted April 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, marcus said: There is a difference between a newspaper kicking someone out and jailing journalists and activists. I also have explained in general that why he was jailed and how he was released back by another terror organization. I can share more articles if you are interested but now I am going to leave. I will write tomarrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, Altai said: I also have explained in general that why he was jailed and how he was released back by another terror organization. I can share more articles if you are interested but now I am going to leave. I will write tomarrow. The number of journalists who have been jailed is alarming. This is not a characteristic of a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 1 hour ago, bcsapper said: One would have to legally define harm. If I tell you your driving stinks and you are an idiot after you cut me off in traffic your feelings might be hurt but I doubt I would do time for it. The fact is we have a basic difference of opinion. To me, the right to freedom of speech trumps the right to not be offended. To you, it does not. Luckily, we each live in a country where we get our own way. I have to agree with Altai on this. Freedom of speech is limited. There are certain laws that restrict it. We must also remember a forum sets it's own rules which can mean there are limits to speech. We cannot insult other people. The question of offending is a complicated question. It depends on a number of things. We have to be careful when making a point that the point if expressed in a way that causes the least offense. If the purpose is to simply offend someone, then that would be wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, blackbird said: I have to agree with Altai on this. Freedom of speech is limited. There are certain laws that restrict it. We must also remember a forum sets it's own rules which can mean there are limits to speech. We cannot insult other people. The question of offending is a complicated question. It depends on a number of things. We have to be careful when making a point that the point if expressed in a way that causes the least offense. If the purpose is to simply offend someone, then that would be wrong. I disagree. The right to free expression should be the core of any democracy. No matter how offensive the expression might be to some. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 Just now, blackbird said: I have to agree with Altai on this. Freedom of speech is limited. There are certain laws that restrict it. We must also remember a forum sets it's own rules which can mean there are limits to speech. We cannot insult other people. The question of offending is a complicated question. It depends on a number of things. We have to be careful when making a point that the point if expressed in a way that causes the least offense. If the purpose is to simply offend someone, then that would be wrong. Of course it's limited. Slander, libel, incitement, fire in theatres, etc. It's not limited such that offence is proscribed, though. Or at least it shouldn't be. We certainly do not have to be careful as you describe. There is a difference between manners and rights. It really doesn't matter if it is "wrong". I've already stated the forum can do what it wants, right or wrong. They frequently do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash74 Posted April 16, 2017 Report Share Posted April 16, 2017 We all agree to follow the rules of this forum or we are kicked out. That is fair. Nobody held a gun to our heads to sign up. But if I walk away from my computer and tell my wife I think so and so is a moron than no crime has been committed. That is free speech. This is a private forum for which we all agreed to follow certain rules out of respect. I think Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau are both idiots amd I have a legal right to say it. But in Turkey it is illegal to say that very thing about the president. Altai feels feelings matter. Ok. But she has called people terrorists and they have not be convicted in any court. Is that not an insult? Should that not be illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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