EVIDENCE FOR GOD

[Scott Mayers]

@ Betsy:

20 hours ago, betsy said:

On 24/01/2018 at 12:19 PM, Scott Mayers said:

If I now tell you that I am God, would you now 'deny' me? What would you call yourself if you lack reason to believe in me?

LOL:  if you tell me you're God....I'll not only deny you.....I'll also say you need psychiatric help!    That, only shows, you're not getting the rational argument given in this thread.  It's simply sailing over your head.   Kindly do your homework, and read all my posts, starting with the OP.

So, you've just proven that you are an "atheist"! I assert that I'm God in front of everyone witnessing and yet you DENY me. Shame! 

Please prove that I'm NOT God! 

[John Prewett]

Scott Mayers inquired:  Should the textbooks also include mentioning ALL religion's theories about origins? Tell me, should the textbook reserve a chapter on those who believe Aliens from other planets came here and originally planted humans here? What about Buddha? What about each and every theory by each and every claim believed true about origins?

------------------------------------------------------------

I don't care to waste my time proffering opinions that will never remotely influence what goes in to common secular textbooks.  

My point had to do with the accusation someone made about believers being "led by the nose" into becoming Christians.  

 I submit that common public schools lead children by the nose into acquiring a Atheist Materialist Humanist Paganish mindset.

As for Catholic schools .... consider:

Former priest, Roman Catholic in good standing,  John Carroll is a prolific well respected RC author.

Following from his "An American Requiem,"  page 109: (when he entered RC seminary)

"It jolted me to hear professors and classmates discussing what I had taken to be God's great interventions in time and space as myth and story, constructions that may or may not have "really happened,..."       " heroes of the faith who may not have existed. ......."

       Form criticism undid my notion not only of Noah, but of Jesus.

It staggered me to learn that Gospel accounts were anything but historical records of Jesus' life and ministry.   …..

I learned that none of the Gospels was written by eyewitness …..”

 https://www.amazon.com/American-Requiem-Father-That-Between/dp/039585993X

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by John Prewett

[GostHacked]

On 1/22/2018 at 7:59 PM, blackbird said:

The article about him which I posted earlier on here says " He was very successful, giving 900 speeches and debates per year in schools, universities, and churches as well as appearing on radio and television. "   That may have been 25 or 30 years ago and not now.  It included a number of venues and broadcasts and could have been an average of 900 in a year. I gather he was very popular.  There are many evangelical christians in the U.S.  

900 divided by 365 days a year.  means he gives an average of 2.5 of these 'debates' each and every day. I call bullshit on that.

[Omni]

7 hours ago, John Prewett said:

I submit that common public schools lead children by the nose into acquiring a Atheist Materialist Humanist Paganish mindset

After the horror of catholic schools we learned to separate church and state, and schools. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

900 divided by 365 days a year.  means he gives an average of 2.5 of these 'debates' each and every day. I call bullshit on that.

If he didn't have to do anything else during the day, it is quite conceivable he spoke that much on radio, TV, schools, churches, public meetings.  I don't find it that difficult to believe. But whatever you wish to believe's fine with me.

Edited January 26, 2018 by blackbird

[blackbird]

21 minutes ago, Omni said:

After the horror of catholic schools we learned to separate church and state, and schools. 

You must have meant to say native residential schools, not Catholic schools.  There are no horrors in Catholic schools.  (Except in a few places in the past like the Mount Cashel boy's boarding school in Newfoundland run by some Catholic brothers and possibly another boarding school which I think are all closed now)

Edited January 26, 2018 by blackbird

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You must have meant to say native residential schools, not Catholic schools.  There are no horrors in Catholic schools.  (Except in a few places in the past like the Mount Cashel boy's boarding school in Newfoundland run by some Catholic brothers and possibly another boarding school which I think are all closed now)

The majority of the residential schools were run by the Catholic Church, with a few run by other Christian denominations.  But why does it matter which particular Christian sect imposed horrors on the people in their care?  They all claimed to be following the God of the Bible.

 

[Omni]

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You must have meant to say native residential schools, not Catholic schools.  There are no horrors in Catholic schools.  (Except in a few places in the past like the Mount Cashel boy's boarding school in Newfoundland run by some Catholic brothers and possibly another boarding school which I think are all closed now)

dialamah has answered tat question. Thanks to her.

[Goddess]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But why does it matter which particular Christian sect imposed horrors on the people in their care?  They all claimed to be following the God of the Bible.

 

I imagine for the same reasons Muslims like to distinguish between Sunni, Shia, ISIS, Al Quaeda, etc.  They all claim to be following Allah.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Goddess

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I imagine for the same reasons Muslims like to distinguish between Sunni, Shia, ISIS, Al Quaeda, etc.  They all claim to be following Allah.

Yawn.

[Goddess]

Just now, dialamah said:

Yawn.

I was agreeing with you.

** hands you a cup of coffee **

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I was agreeing with you.

** hands you a cup of coffee **

Well thanks for the clarification and cup of coffee.  I did think you were taking a dig at me.

Anyway, I think in the context of the residential schools and the mores of the time, there was not much difference between them. 

At the same time the difference between, for example, the Baptists and the United Church of today are significantly different and in some contexts that would certainly matter.  One can't claim that Christians hate gays based on the Baptists.  

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, Omni said:

dialamah has answered tat question. Thanks to her.

 

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

The majority of the residential schools were run by the Catholic Church, with a few run by other Christian denominations.  But why does it matter which particular Christian sect imposed horrors on the people in their care?  They all claimed to be following the God of the Bible.

 

You obviously mis read Omni comment and my reply.   He/she incorrectly referred to the horrors of Catholic schools..    There are hundreds of Catholics schools (day schools)  across the country, which were not a horror story.   I thought he/she meant to say the native residential schools were a horror, but said Catholic schools were a horror.   But if you want to jump in and throw stones at everyone, go ahead.

[Scott Mayers]

10 hours ago, John Prewett said:

Scott Mayers inquired:  Should the textbooks also include mentioning ALL religion's theories about origins? Tell me, should the textbook reserve a chapter on those who believe Aliens from other planets came here and originally planted humans here? What about Buddha? What about each and every theory by each and every claim believed true about origins?

------------------------------------------------------------

I don't care to waste my time proffering opinions that will never remotely influence what goes in to common secular textbooks.  

My point had to do with the accusation someone made about believers being "led by the nose" into becoming Christians.  

 I submit that common public schools lead children by the nose into acquiring a Atheist Materialist Humanist Paganish mindset.

Your churches have dedicated places of teaching your views already. Is it not enough that your KIND of 'education' is itself only DICTATES of reality that now you want to impose this kind of thinking upon children in the public domain? Christianity is NOT the only religion. And you are only frustrated that you can't con a vulnerable audience prior to their capacity to think on their own.

Also, "religion" IS often taught in public schools in indirect ways. For the most part, the contextual material of 'morality' is taught. Also, social studies (of various forms) deal with these WITHOUT bias to any particular religion.

"Atheist" is what one is by default prior to being TAUGHT that some religious view is or is not true. If your beliefs are NATURAL, there would be no need for any institutes to teach it because we'd already know it genetically. 

"Paganist"? You mean that the kids themselves are permitted to think freely about their own beliefs? Paganism means one believes in multiple gods. They don't teach this in science either. If anything, some of this is taught WITH the title of "MYTH" within Language Classes on literature or to Social Studies on history. You're welcome to challenge those teaching those things. But I am certain that you are actually wanting to impose your beliefs in science, not social studies or language arts. To that, it is essential that science ONLY deal with things that we can witness with our senses in today's world. You can't expect people to learn of supposed truths about phenomena you cannot provide evidence for. 

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

You obviously mis read Omni comment and my reply.   He/she incorrectly referred to the horrors of Catholic schools..    There are hundreds of Catholics schools (day schools)  across the country, which were not a horror story.   I thought he/she meant to say the native residential schools were a horror, but said Catholic schools were a horror.   But if you want to jump in and throw stones at everyone, go ahead.

You obviously ignored (or tried to) dialamah's closing comment. I reckon there have been far more horror shows created/committed in the name of one or another made up image of god (please select your favorite) than for any other reason. Go to whatever church you want, kowtow to whichever idol you want, but stay the hell away from attempting to effect the laws/courts of this land or else. 

[dialamah]

24 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

You obviously mis read Omni comment and my reply.   He/she incorrectly referred to the horrors of Catholic schools..    There are hundreds of Catholics schools (day schools)  across the country, which were not a horror story.   I thought he/she meant to say the native residential schools were a horror, but said Catholic schools were a horror.   But if you want to jump in and throw stones at everyone, go ahead.

I was responding to your statement that there were only a few residential schools run by the Catholic Church.

[Scott Mayers]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I was responding to your statement that there were only a few residential schools run by the Catholic Church.

Our government also protected the churches by (A) Agreeing to accept the claims without convictions, (B) on the claim to protect the integrity of the individuals abused.

Our Constitution grants the Catholics a special power of preservation. While other religious institutes were also granted powers of these schools, what gets missed is that with the above means among others, our government managed to successfully transfer the burden of abuses wholesale to the population at large. Clever con!   

Its a win-win for the Catholic Church AND all other religious groups. The abuses of these schools were about religious intoleration against the aboriginals because they believed they had the WRONG religious beliefs. Yet the abuses are claimed to be merely about the concept of assimilation in a secular way. This distracts people into looking away from the actual particular faults of these institutes. 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

You obviously ignored (or tried to) dialamah's closing comment. I reckon there have been far more horror shows created/committed in the name of one or another made up image of god (please select your favorite) than for any other reason. Go to whatever church you want, kowtow to whichever idol you want, but stay the hell away from attempting to effect the laws/courts of this land or else. 

Your bigotry dominates your thinking and comments.  Impossible for you to consider anybody else's perspective.

[Omni]

Just now, blackbird said:

Your bigotry dominates your thinking and comments.  Impossible for you to consider anybody else's perspective.

My "bigotry" makes me understand the importance of the separation of church and state. I'm just heading you off at the pass.

[blackbird]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

I was responding to your statement that there were only a few residential schools run by the Catholic Church.

I meant the number of residential schools compared with non-residential Catholic schools.  Must be hundreds of Catholic schools in existence.

[Omni]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I meant the number of residential schools compared with non-residential Catholic schools.  Must be hundreds of Catholic schools in existence.

Hopefully not and hopefully the ones that do exist are closely monitored for signs of the previous horrors visited on children who attended.

[blackbird]

9 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

Your churches have dedicated places of teaching your views already. Is it not enough that your KIND of 'education' is itself only DICTATES of reality that now you want to impose this kind of thinking upon children in the public domain? Christianity is NOT the only religion. And you are only frustrated that you can't con a vulnerable audience prior to their capacity to think on their own.

Also, "religion" IS often taught in public schools in indirect ways. For the most part, the contextual material of 'morality' is taught. Also, social studies (of various forms) deal with these WITHOUT bias to any particular religion.

"Atheist" is what one is by default prior to being TAUGHT that some religious view is or is not true. If your beliefs are NATURAL, there would be no need for any institutes to teach it because we'd already know it genetically. 

"Paganist"? You mean that the kids themselves are permitted to think freely about their own beliefs? Paganism means one believes in multiple gods. They don't teach this in science either. If anything, some of this is taught WITH the title of "MYTH" within Language Classes on literature or to Social Studies on history. You're welcome to challenge those teaching those things. But I am certain that you are actually wanting to impose your beliefs in science, not social studies or language arts. To that, it is essential that science ONLY deal with things that we can witness with our senses in today's world. You can't expect people to learn of supposed truths about phenomena you cannot provide evidence for. 

The word "morality" actually is a relativistic term.  It comes from the word mores, which refers to the general practices of what society accepts or does not accept.  It can change with the times as new fads or ideas develop.  We see this with the wide acceptance of abortion and LGBT rights.  Other "rights" seem to be coming more to the fore now or being proclaimed as rights.

I think if you look into it you will find all societies throughout history have some kind of mores which they taught their children.  What they taught their children was likely derived from what their particular religion in their area taught them, whatever it was.

It is only in recent times in the west that the idea of secular humanism has developed and grabbed onto by society.  This may be partly because of the immigration system.  Previously most of the immigrants to Canada and the U.S. came from Europe.  That meant they were either Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.  But in the last fifty years, with the increasing immigration from third world non-christian countries, it has been decided that no religion should be taught in public schools.  Some provinces get around this by providing extra funding to Catholic schools, which are guaranteed by the Constitution to receive funding.  But Pierre Trudeau I believe introduced or promoted the idea of multiculturalism.  This meant the religion of all immigrants would have to be treated equally in public schools.  We also see fewer people attending churches in Canada in recent years.  This has resulted in a greater emphasis of no religious teaching in public schools.  Except in recent times, the Ontario government has added some human rights code or law to require public schools to "accommodate" other religions to some extent.  This is why we see some schools allowing a 15 minute prayer meeting for Islam in the gymnasium on Fridays.

Edited January 27, 2018 by blackbird

[betsy]

On 1/26/2018 at 2:14 AM, Scott Mayers said:

@ Betsy:

So, you've just proven that you are an "atheist"! I assert that I'm God in front of everyone witnessing and yet you DENY me. Shame! 

Please prove that I'm NOT God! 

???????

 

That, only shows, you're not getting the rational argument given in this thread.  Really.

[John Prewett]

15 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

Your churches have dedicated places of teaching your views already. ............. 

Scott Mayers said: Your churches have dedicated places of teaching your views already. ............. 

 

 

 

 

Back in ancient days when I twere a lad (middle class) in small town Southern USA,   the "Churches" ( which I now know are cults)  

of organized christianish religion had "Sunday School."   

Most towns did not have Roman Catholic schools.   RC schools was a big city thing.  

I never met a Roman Catholic (or a Jew, much less a Muslim) until I was a young adult.   And then not many.

I was pushing 30 before I became aware of the inordinate political power Roman Catholicism and Jews had in America.  

Of course all are aware of the growing clout of Islam.

After integration became mandatory (mid 60s) some "private" schools came to be ... sometimes sponsored by a "Church." 

But most children attended Public School.    

I watched as over the years American courts and public schools became more and more hostile to the very idea of God. 

I attended Methodist "Church" until leaving home at 18.  

Shortly before I left home I decided I was an Atheist ....   an unsophisticated one .. but an Atheist nevertheless. 

Small town public school (me high school grad of 1966) had not been overtly hostile to religious belief ....   Some teachers expressed genuine faith ..

I remember only one that openly revealed some skepticism of God.  Rather Public School had proffered a view of life that was simple Godless. 

How did life get here ?   We were led to believe the life just "evolved" sans God.   No serious explanation proffered ... it just happened. 

Godless,  like most TV, movies and music of the time. I haven't watched-heard American TV-Music-Movies for nearly 20 years because I don't live in America.  

But I bet that now,  as then,  one seldom see characters counting on God (much less Jesus) for anything.

My father did not preach to me .... but I knew he was a believer.  He read the Bible and he took us to "Church" and more that made me know he was a believer.

  I guess I was expecting to see spiritual fireworks .... like see people healed on the spot ... as opposed to preacher going to hospital and doing some praying that didn't deliver instantaneous healing.    Preacher would say "let us pray for so and so that is in the hospital .... but I don't recall hearing of any spectacular healings .....  I didn't see any POWER .... and didn't appreciate what I could see (a lot of basically decent human beings).  

  The secular culture around me overcame the leading of my father and "church" and (greatly aided by sex drive) LED ME BY THE NOSE into Atheism.  

Was Atheist from about 1965 til 1973.   (later my father's guidance and faith prevailed)  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by John Prewett

[blackbird]

22 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

 

Its a win-win for the Catholic Church AND all other religious groups. The abuses of these schools were about religious intoleration against the aboriginals because they believed they had the WRONG religious beliefs. Yet the abuses are claimed to be merely about the concept of assimilation in a secular way. This distracts people into looking away from the actual particular faults of these institutes. 

 The idea of native witch doctors, sometimes called Shaminism was viewed as an uncivilized practice.  The non-native society, government and churches believed that natives had to be assimilated in white man's society.  The idea of people keeping their aboriginal culture and religions was not considered the best way to go.  We need to keep in mind society has changed, especially in the last number of decades.  100 or 150 years ago the idea of a Charter of Rights or individual freedom to do your own thing never existed.  The rights that are enthroned today for natives and immigrants to keep their own culture and religion is a recent development called multiculturalism.  There may still be certain aspects of native religion or culture that are not known and which could not be practiced or accepted today because it would be harmful to people or against the law.