EVIDENCE FOR GOD

[betsy]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I just don't agree.  I gave you my stance before.  What you have to understand is that there's different types of atheists.  There's atheists that believe there's no God/higher being and no possibility of it.  There's also atheists like myself that don't believe in a God/higher being because there's no evidence to confirm or deny such a being exists since we really don't know what the heck is out there beyond the universe.  I guess you could kinda call me an agnostic, or an agnostic atheist, i dunno. 

My belief in God is like my belief in ghosts:  I haven't seen any evidence of it myself, I haven't seen any compelling scientific evidence, and I'm not going to take other people's word for it based on the lack of evidence.

For me, it's enough to know that there are powerful forces & processes in the universe and beyond we don't yet understand, and for me I think it's important to be humble enough to admit to myself "I don't know what's out there, and some questions I'll never know the answer to". To me admitting that doesn't make the universe or the Earth any less beautiful.  Maybe it makes it even more beautiful because it's such a mystery. 

I don't want you to stop believing in God.  Faith is an important part of Christianity and always has been, honestly you don't even need to defend your belief in God to anyone else, other than just say "I believe because I have faith". But when you start making scientific claims that aren't accurate, then you'll have to defend those arguments.

 

You may not agree, but that's just the truth of it - as given in various posts.   

 

If you say, " it's enough to know that there are powerful forces & processes in the universe and beyond we don't yet understand," then I'm baffled as to why you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the possibility of God exists.  

If you say, "I think it's important to be humble enough to admit to myself I don't know what's out there, and some questions I'll never know the answer to," then why is it so difficult for you to humbly acknowledge that the possibility of God's existence, exists?

 

Just analyze what you just stated there - they aren't consistent with the way you're reacting to the possibility of God's existence.   It seems that to you, any "powerful forces and processes" can be anything BUT God.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't want you to stop believing in God.  Faith is an important part of Christianity and always has been, honestly you don't even need to defend your belief in God to anyone else, other than just say "I believe because I have faith". But when you start making scientific claims that aren't accurate, then you'll have to defend those arguments.

 

Defending the faith, I'm not doing this for me.

  I'm not doing it for New Atheists either, who are bent on distorting, maligning and ridiculing the Bible - although it would be great if any one of them would take a pause and be open-minded about this.

 

I'm doing this for those non-believers who are seeking, those who are doing researches in their hope to find the truth, and those that are being confused by what people like Richard Dawkins are trying to peddle.

Edited April 5, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

 There is reason why the world hates Christ.  There is a reason why the world fear the existence of the Biblical God.

 

1 John 2

On Not Loving the World

¹⁵ Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father^[d] is not in them. ¹⁶ For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. ¹⁷ The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

 

John 15

²² If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

 

 

The world doesn't like the rules given by the Biblical God.

Edited April 5, 2017 by betsy

[dre]

9 hours ago, betsy said:

 There is reason why the world hates Christ.  There is a reason why the world fear the existence of the Biblical God.

 

1 John 2

On Not Loving the World

¹⁵ Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father^[d] is not in them. ¹⁶ For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. ¹⁷ The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

 

John 15

²² If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

 

 

The world doesn't like the rules given by the Biblical God.

I don't know about "christ". He was just a carpenter that roman aristocrats decided to write "the new testament" about after the guy was long dead. They wrote the gospels as well btw, and burned the majority of christian texts that were not  conducive to their narrative.

But lets have a quick look at your god and why people might hate him or fear him... Here's a few of his greatest hits...

1. Bestowed sin, dishonesty, envy, greed, etc on an entire race because one freaking woman ate a apple she wasnt supposed to eat.

2. Commited mass genocide, murdering every single person on earth except for 3, and killing billions of other life forms as well.

3. Is so obsessed with himself, that if you don't worship him and believe in him when you die, you are condemned to an eternity of torture.

4. Told Abraham to burn his son alive, and watched while the scumbag forced the poor kid to carry the very wood that would be used to burn him. Then at the last minute was like... naw just kidding man! Note to self: If I'm gonna burn my son alive to appease some voice in my head, I'm gonna give him a break and carry the freaking wood for him. This ones on me little dude! I got this! 

5. Destroyed entire cities full of innocent people because some guys had butt sex.

6. Created woman as an afterthought! Because a man was bored LOL. This belief helped underpin centuries of the treatment of women as livestock by the "faithful". Until the rise of secularism woman were more or less men's posessions. Like a screwdriver... or a toaster.

What is this guy? A cosmic version of Saddam Hussein? A self obsessed slaughterer of innocent people. What would you think of any other entity that did those things? Who are you going to worship next? Jeffrey Dalmer? Clifford Olsan? Kim Jong Il?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by dre

[hot enough]

It's plain to see that the devil has reached deep into your being, dre. 

Get thee behind me, [and some other old words to make me sound bright] Satan. 

 

 

[betsy]

1 hour ago, dre said:

I don't know about "christ". He was just a carpenter that roman aristocrats decided to write "the new testament" about after the guy was long dead. They wrote the gospels as well btw, and burned the majority of christian texts that were not  conducive to their narrative.

But lets have a quick look at your god and why people might hate him or fear him... Here's a few of his greatest hits...

1. Bestowed sin, dishonesty, envy, greed, etc on an entire race because one freaking woman ate a apple she wasnt supposed to eat.

2. Commited mass genocide, murdering every single person on earth except for 3, and killing billions of other life forms as well.

3. Is so obsessed with himself, that if you don't worship him and believe in him when you die, you are condemned to an eternity of torture.

4. Told Abraham to burn his son alive, and watched while the scumbag forced the poor kid to carry the very wood that would be used to burn him. Then at the last minute was like... naw just kidding man! Note to self: If I'm gonna burn my son alive to appease some voice in my head, I'm gonna give him a break and carry the freaking wood for him. This ones on me little dude! I got this! 

5. Destroyed entire cities full of innocent people because some guys had butt sex.

6. Created woman as an afterthought! Because a man was bored LOL. This belief helped underpin centuries of the treatment of women as livestock by the "faithful". Until the rise of secularism woman were more or less men's posessions. Like a screwdriver... or a toaster.

What is this guy? A cosmic version of Saddam Hussein? A self obsessed slaughterer of innocent people. What would you think of any other entity that did those things? Who are you going to worship next? Jeffrey Dalmer? Clifford Olsan? Kim Jong Il?

 

 

 

 

 

Lol.  Ignorance can count too, why the world hates Christ/God.  

 

 

So......after all your long tirade, what you ranted still fall under what Jesus had explained:

because of  LUST and PRIDE!

Edited April 5, 2017 by betsy

[dre]

8 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

Lol.  Ignorance can count too, why the world hates Christ.  

But the foremost would be because of the rules - like as you said, having butt sex.....or, creation of women after men.

I don't hate Christ! Hell, I used to be a semi-employed long-haired carpenter too. Never got it on with prostitutes like he did, but to each his own! His dad was quite the sicko but you cant blame him for that! And you cant blame him for the Pisos using him as the central figure in their concocted story generations after he was already dead. Me and the Christ dude got no issues!

[betsy]

Just now, dre said:

I don't hate Christ! Hell, I used to be a semi-employed long-haired carpenter too. Never got it on with prostitutes like he did, but to each his own! His dad was quite the sicko but you cant blame him for that! And you cant blame him for the Pisos using him as the central figure in their concocted story generations after he was already dead. Me and the Christ dude got no issues!

Did I say you hate Christ?

[dre]

Just now, betsy said:

Did I say you hate Christ?

You said "the world hates christ".

I assumed the "world" you meant was the planet earth... So I looked up my address and sure enough... 1... 2... 3 planets away from the sun! That's where I live.

[betsy]

8 minutes ago, dre said:

You said "the world hates christ".

I assumed the "world" you meant was the planet earth... So I looked up my address and sure enough... 1... 2... 3 planets away from the sun! That's where I live.

So?

What, you think Christians hate Christ just because I said the world hates Christ?

Edited April 5, 2017 by betsy

[dre]

13 minutes ago, betsy said:

So?

What, you think Christians hate Christ just because I said the world hates Christ?

I dunno! What world do Christians live on?

[GostHacked]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

 

Defending the faith, I'm not doing this for me.

  I'm not doing it for New Atheists either, who are bent on distorting, maligning and ridiculing the Bible - although it would be great if any one of them would take a pause and be open-minded about this.

 

I'm doing this for those non-believers who are seeking, those who are doing researches in their hope to find the truth, and those that are being confused by what people like Richard Dawkins are trying to peddle.

So, since we have different versions of the Bible, which one is the true one that supports your notion of god?

[overthere]

Betsy, do you believe in the literal truth of the Bible.?  Is every word true and sacred?

[betsy]

14 hours ago, overthere said:

Betsy, do you believe in the literal truth of the Bible.?  Is every word true and sacred?

It depends.  Is every word true?

The Bible  has figures of speech.  If it says it rains cats and dogs, are we supposed to take that literally?

 

Is every metaphor to be taken literally?  Like the Shepherd and the sheep?  The Lamb of God?

Edited April 6, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

15 hours ago, GostHacked said:

So, since we have different versions of the Bible, which one is the true one that supports your notion of god?

 

Quote

 

When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate.

Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

 

Thus we should know what the topic is all about (or the chapter), when we try to understand what the Bible says.

 

 

Quote

 

Why Are There Different Versions Of The Bible?

 

When people hear there are over 50 different versions of the Bible in English alone, they often think to themselves, "No wonder there are many denominations each teaching different things, there are many different versions of the Bible." This view, however, is wrong. Yes there are many denominations, but don't blame that on the fact there are many versions of the Bible. There is one Bible.

 

"IS THE BIBLE ACCURATE?"

In a conversation with a man at Walmart, a statement was made as well as a question asked: "The Bible was taken from hand written copies, much of which are only fragments. How can we trust that what we have is accurate?"

Because there are over 14,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament we can absolutely be confident of its accuracy. With this large number of manuscripts, comparing manuscripts easily reveals any place where a scribe has made an error or where there is a variation.

There are approximately 150,000 variations in the manuscripts we have today. However, these variations represent only 10,000 places in the New Testament (if the same word was misspelled in 3,000 manuscripts, that is counted as 3,000 variations.) Of these 10,000 places, all but 400 are questions of spelling in accord with accepted usage, grammatical construction, or order of words. Of the remaining variations, only 50 are of significance (such as two manuscripts leaving out Acts 2:37). But of these 50, not one alters even one article of faith which cannot be abundantly sustained by other undoubted passages.

There are some manuscripts that date as early as 130 AD, very close to the completion of the New Testament. These manuscripts are nearly identical to those dating 900 years later, thus verifying the accuracy of the scribes.

Besides this, Jesus promised that His words would not pass away. (Mat 24:35) .. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

 

 

http://www.bible.ca/b-many-versions.htm

 

Of course, there are new "mainstream" Bibles that have been printed which caters to political correctness.  One example would be the "Queen James Bible."

Edited April 6, 2017 by betsy

[GostHacked]

38 minutes ago, betsy said:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Thus we should know what the topic is all about (or the chapter), when we try to understand what the Bible says.

http://www.bible.ca/b-many-versions.htm

Of course, there are new "mainstream" Bibles that have been printed which caters to political correctness.  One example would be the "Queen James Bible."

Thanks for the information, but that fails to address the question I posed.

[betsy]

10 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Thanks for the information, but that fails to address the question I posed.

My Bible Study is a King James.  But I also use NIV, NKJ ....as explained by the article, there's really no significant difference.

[GostHacked]

There are differences from what I understand, and now you are using a book that was written by man, modified by man, but directed by God??  Come on.

Edited April 6, 2017 by GostHacked

[blackbird]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

My Bible Study is a King James.  But I also use NIV, NKJ ....as explained by the article, there's really no significant difference.

Sorry to differ with you betsy, but there are major differences between modern versions such as the NIV and the King James Authorized Version (KJV 1611).  You probably are not aware of the problem because most churches use the modern versions and promote them.  I may have to post some of the changes brought in with the modern (new age) versions such as the NIV, which is particularly bad.   There is a smaller part of christianity that believe the KJV (1611) is the only 100% accurate version for a number of reasons.  There is so much to it I can't go into it all here.  Get the book called "New Age Bible Versions" by Gail Riplinger.  There are strong advocates for the KJV 1611 and strong opponents who make their cases in books as well.  I read and studied the book I mentioned.  Also belonged to the Trinitarian Bible Society for over 30 years.  The have pamphlets on the subject.  There is also a KJV website with tons of articles.  Not trying to throw in a diversion to your discussion but just wanted to answer a point you made.  Blessings.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2017-04-05 at 5:41 AM, betsy said:

If you say, " it's enough to know that there are powerful forces & processes in the universe and beyond we don't yet understand," then I'm baffled as to why you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the possibility of God exists.  

If you say, "I think it's important to be humble enough to admit to myself I don't know what's out there, and some questions I'll never know the answer to," then why is it so difficult for you to humbly acknowledge that the possibility of God's existence, exists?

Just analyze what you just stated there - they aren't consistent with the way you're reacting to the possibility of God's existence.   It seems that to you, any "powerful forces and processes" can be anything BUT God.

I don't know what you're talking about, because I've already readily admitted in this thread, i think maybe more than once, that the possibility of God (or Gods) exists, along with infinite other possibilities as to how the universe came to be.

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

Sorry to differ with you betsy, but there are major differences between modern versions such as the NIV and the King James Authorized Version (KJV 1611).  You probably are not aware of the problem because most churches use the modern versions and promote them.  I may have to post some of the changes brought in with the modern (new age) versions such as the NIV, which is particularly bad.   There is a smaller part of christianity that believe the KJV (1611) is the only 100% accurate version for a number of reasons.  There is so much to it I can't go into it all here.  Get the book called "New Age Bible Versions" by Gail Riplinger.  There are strong advocates for the KJV 1611 and strong opponents who make their cases in books as well.  I read and studied the book I mentioned.  Also belonged to the Trinitarian Bible Society for over 30 years.  The have pamphlets on the subject.  There is also a KJV website with tons of articles.  Not trying to throw in a diversion to your discussion but just wanted to answer a point you made.  Blessings.

 

15 hours ago, betsy said:

My Bible Study is a King James.  But I also use NIV, NKJ ....as explained by the article, there's really no significant difference.

Here is a website with some information about why the King James Version is the only version to use:

http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/PDF/Defending_The_KJB.pdf

This website has links to countless other websites on the subject of the KJV 1611:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/1611_authorized_king_james.htm

Edited April 7, 2017 by blackbird

[betsy]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

Sorry to differ with you betsy, but there are major differences between modern versions such as the NIV and the King James Authorized Version (KJV 1611).  You probably are not aware of the problem because most churches use the modern versions and promote them.  I may have to post some of the changes brought in with the modern (new age) versions such as the NIV, which is particularly bad.   There is a smaller part of christianity that believe the KJV (1611) is the only 100% accurate version for a number of reasons.  There is so much to it I can't go into it all here.  Get the book called "New Age Bible Versions" by Gail Riplinger.  There are strong advocates for the KJV 1611 and strong opponents who make their cases in books as well.  I read and studied the book I mentioned.  Also belonged to the Trinitarian Bible Society for over 30 years.  The have pamphlets on the subject.  There is also a KJV website with tons of articles.  Not trying to throw in a diversion to your discussion but just wanted to answer a point you made.  Blessings.

Thanks for that.

[betsy]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't know what you're talking about, because I've already readily admitted in this thread, i think maybe more than once, that the possibility of God (or Gods) exists, along with infinite other possibilities as to how the universe came to be.

Oh, okay. 

[betsy]

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

Here is a website with some information about why the King James Version is the only version to use:

http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/PDF/Defending_The_KJB.pdf

This website has links to countless other websites on the subject of the KJV 1611:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/1611_authorized_king_james.htm

 

Just to clarify, the Bible Study Bible I use is KJV.   But I also quote from NIV or NKJ  (posting them here - they are easier to read), or read from the Bible they got at church' pews (I can't remember what version). 

 

But thank you for that.   I have found this and I'm appalled.  I'll never quote from NIV again!

 

 

Quote

 

Bible Translation Comparison And Deception

 

The NIV has removed 17 entire verses, and major portions of at least 147 verses!

The NIV removes a total of 64,576 words, which is 8% of God’s word.

The NIV removes wonderful Bible “terms” like Jehovah, Godhead, remission, regeneration,
impute and propitiation.

And now the newly updated 2011 NIV Bible has been changed to be ‘politically correct’ and ‘gender neutral’.

 

KJV vs NIV: The NIV removes the name of Jesus 38 times

Here’s some examples:

In Acts 8:37, the NIV removed this verse where the Ethiopian Eunich professed his faith in Jesus Christ.

KJ – “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

NIV –

In 1 Corinthians 16:22, they removed the name of ‘Jesus Christ’

KJ – “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.”

NIV – “If anyone does not love the Lord – a curse be on him. Come, O Lord“

There are many Christ’s, but we are reconciled by Jesus Christ.

In 2 Corinthians 5:18, it removed the name of ‘Jesus’

KJ – “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation“

NIV – “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation“

In Galations 4:7, they removed that we are heirs of God ‘through Christ’

KJ – “Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”

NIV – “So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.”

 

 

 

http://christianitybeliefs.org/the-most-accurate-bible-translation-comparison-and-deception/

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

Sorry to differ with you betsy, but there are major differences between modern versions such as the NIV and the King James Authorized Version (KJV 1611).  You probably are not aware of the problem because most churches use the modern versions and promote them.  I may have to post some of the changes brought in with the modern (new age) versions such as the NIV, which is particularly bad.   There is a smaller part of christianity that believe the KJV (1611) is the only 100% accurate version for a number of reasons.  There is so much to it I can't go into it all here.  Get the book called "New Age Bible Versions" by Gail Riplinger.  There are strong advocates for the KJV 1611 and strong opponents who make their cases in books as well.  I read and studied the book I mentioned.  Also belonged to the Trinitarian Bible Society for over 30 years.  The have pamphlets on the subject.  There is also a KJV website with tons of articles.  Not trying to throw in a diversion to your discussion but just wanted to answer a point you made.  Blessings.

 

If you have the time, you should create a thread specifically for that.  It'll help a lot of folks who are interested to read the Bible.