EVIDENCE FOR GOD

[betsy]

ARGUMENT from CHANGE


The world we know is a world of change. There is always change. Your child came to be 5'6” in height, but she was not always that tall. The apple tree grew from a tiny seed. Now, when something comes to be in that certain state – such as height – it cannot bring itself into being. It has to come to be.
For until it advances and comes to be, it does not exist. Until your child reaches 5'6” in height, she is not 5'6” tall. Until the seed comes to be a tree, there is no tree. The tree does not exist. And if it does not exist, it cannot cause anything.

For the thing that changes, until it becomes what it becomes (although it can become what it will be), it is not yet what it will be. Your 5 year old child is not yet a 6-year old. Your child exists right now as a 5 year old, and he will come to that stage of being a 6-year old – but right now, that is just a potentiality. He is a 5-year old right now with a potential of reaching 6.

With that premise given above, here is the explanation of the change: do you consider the changing thing alone.....or.....
.....are there other outside things involved?
Of course, other factors/things are involved! Nothing can bestow upon itself what it does not possess.
The 5-year old cannot just grant himself to suddenly become 6, nor the seed can grant itself to suddenly become a tree. They cannot become the result of change before the change actually happens.

The thing that changes begins with only the potential to change.....but it has to be acted on by other things outside it if it will make it to become what it's supposed to become. The 5-year old will need to be cared for in order to make it to 6, and the seed will need all the other necessary things to become that tree.

Nothing changes itself.

Self-moving things like animals or humans are not merely moved by molecules – they're also moved by will or desire. When we die, the molecules remain but, the body no longer moves because the will and the desire are no longer present.

But what about those other outside things that were involved? Do they also go through changes?
Of course. Each one need something outside itself to make it to enable their potentiality for change.
Everything and anything need something outside of itself to actualize their potentiality for change.

No matter how many there are.....the universe is the sum total of all these things. The universe itself is in the process of change.

We already know that any changing thing requires an outside factor to make it happen. Therefore, there is some force outside of the universe – something transcendent to the universe! This is meant by, “MOVER,” or “GOD.”

If there is nothing outside the material universe, then there is nothing outside of the universe that can enable it to change. But we know the universe does change.

Matter, space and time – all depending on each other - is the sum total of the universe. Therefore, this being outside the universe is outside  matter, space and time. It is not a changing thing; it is the unchanging Source of change.

[betsy]

Btw,

 

Evidence is not a concrete proof.

Think of criminal investigations. Fingerprints, blood samples, fibers from the scene, voice samples..... are examples of evidence, to justify claims. These evidences will help guide the judge or jury to reach a conclusion.

All these evidences that I'm giving, are that!

[betsy]

DNA

 

Quote

DNA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. In the photo on the left, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.

In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.

What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!2

To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."3 Wait, there's more.

It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup.4 What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.

Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."5

Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.

Is God Real? - See Why DNA Convinced Former Atheist Dr. Antony Flew

 

 

Quote

was an English[3] philosopher. Belonging to the analytic and evidentialist schools of thought, Flew was most notable for his work related to the philosophy of religion. During the course of his career he taught at the universities of Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading, and at York University in Toronto.

For much of his career Flew was known as a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death,[4] the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God.[5] In 2003 he was one of the signers of the Humanist Manifesto.[6] However, in 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism, more specifically a belief in the Aristotelian God.

He stated that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believed in the existence of a god.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by betsy

[Omni]

27 minutes ago, betsy said:

ARGUMENT from CHANGE


The world we know is a world of change. There is always change. Your child came to be 5'6” in height, but she was not always that tall. The apple tree grew from a tiny seed. Now, when something comes to be in that certain state – such as height – it cannot bring itself into being. It has to come to be.
For until it advances and comes to be, it does not exist. Until your child reaches 5'6” in height, she is not 5'6” tall. Until the seed comes to be a tree, there is no tree. The tree does not exist. And if it does not exist, it cannot cause anything.

For the thing that changes, until it becomes what it becomes (although it can become what it will be), it is not yet what it will be. Your 5 year old child is not yet a 6-year old. Your child exists right now as a 5 year old, and he will come to that stage of being a 6-year old – but right now, that is just a potentiality. He is a 5-year old right now with a potential of reaching 6.

With that premise given above, here is the explanation of the change: do you consider the changing thing alone.....or.....
.....are there other outside things involved?
Of course, other factors/things are involved! Nothing can bestow upon itself what it does not possess.
The 5-year old cannot just grant himself to suddenly become 6, nor the seed can grant itself to suddenly become a tree. They cannot become the result of change before the change actually happens.

The thing that changes begins with only the potential to change.....but it has to be acted on by other things outside it if it will make it to become what it's supposed to become. The 5-year old will need to be cared for in order to make it to 6, and the seed will need all the other necessary things to become that tree.

Nothing changes itself.

Self-moving things like animals or humans are not merely moved by molecules – they're also moved by will or desire. When we die, the molecules remain but, the body no longer moves because the will and the desire are no longer present.

But what about those other outside things that were involved? Do they also go through changes?
Of course. Each one need something outside itself to make it to enable their potentiality for change.
Everything and anything need something outside of itself to actualize their potentiality for change.

No matter how many there are.....the universe is the sum total of all these things. The universe itself is in the process of change.

We already know that any changing thing requires an outside factor to make it happen. Therefore, there is some force outside of the universe – something transcendent to the universe! This is meant by, “MOVER,” or “GOD.”

If there is nothing outside the material universe, then there is nothing outside of the universe that can enable it to change. But we know the universe does change.

Matter, space and time – all depending on each other - is the sum total of the universe. Therefore, this being outside the universe is outside  matter, space and time. It is not a changing thing; it is the unchanging Source of change.

I have planted a few tree seeds in my day and guess what, they became trees, so I guess the seed can grant itself to become a tree. In fact that's all it can do, and that's science, not god. But you are right that it doesn't happen immediately. 

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

You're missing the point, Moonlight.

We're talking about the POSSIBILITY of God's existence!  There are numerous evidences that support its possibility.

Well yes there is a possibility of a higher being, we could call it "God" or whatever.  There's just no evidence to back up that theory, so I disagree with you there.  You're trying to find evidence for the existence of god, but you won't find it.  All you have is faith, and that's fine, that's what belief in God has always been.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[hot enough]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it.

Why did this require bold letters? There is nothing about it that is surprising.

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, betsy said:

You're missing the point, Moonlight.

We're talking about the POSSIBILITY of God's existence!  There are numerous evidences that support its possibility. 

No the thread title clearly says evidence for god not evidence for just the possibility.

In any case with possibility comes improbability and the weight of evidence for that is so overwhelming it makes the possibility look silly.

[betsy]

12 hours ago, Omni said:

I have planted a few tree seeds in my day and guess what, they became trees, so I guess the seed can grant itself to become a tree. In fact that's all it can do, and that's science, not god. But you are right that it doesn't happen immediately. 

Yes....but you had to tend to the seed.  If you hadn't planted it, it wouldn't become a tree.

[betsy]

double post.

Edited April 4, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well yes there is a possibility of a higher being, we could call it "God" or whatever.  There's just no evidence to back up that theory, so I disagree with you there.  You're trying to find evidence for the existence of god, but you won't find it.  All you have is faith, and that's fine, that's what belief in God has always been.

 

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

No the thread title clearly says evidence for god not evidence for just the possibility.

In any case with possibility comes improbability and the weight of evidence for that is so overwhelming it makes the possibility look silly.

 

Yes, I have faith.   But I'm not debating with you guys based on faith alone!  Why would I debate simply citing faith with people who don't believe in my faith?   What am I giving here?  Am I not citing science,  and LOGIC?

All my arguments are science-based, and by LOGICAL reasoning.

 

 

There is evidence.  That's why there is the possibility.    You acknowledged there is a possibility.  Without any evidence, you wouldn't say so.   Especially coming from a non-believer, that's only logical, no?

 

Evidence is not a concrete proof.

Think of criminal investigations. Fingerprints, blood samples, fibers from the scene, voice samples..... are examples of evidence, to justify claims. These evidences will help guide the judge or jury to reach a conclusion.

All these evidences that I'm giving, are that!

 

Having explained what evidence is.....what I give however,  are called cumulative evidence.   

 

According to legal dictionary, cumulative evidence are facts or information that proves what has previously been established by other information concerning the same issue.  Cumulative evidence are supportive of other evidence.  It is synonymous with corroborative evidence.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Cumulative+Evidence

 

Quote

cumulative evidence

additional evidence reinforcing testimony previously given

 

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cumulative-evidence

 

 

 

So, just like in any investigation - if  you have the fingerprint of the suspect, his blood samples, fibers from his clothes, his voice samples, or/and his dna - all cumulative evidence against the suspect -  they all point to him, the verdict is reached!  He is found guilty.

 

You can't respond to one evidence here, and ignore all the rest.  They become a package deal.

 

So don't tell me there's no evidence!  We have CUMULATIVE evidence for the existence of God!

Edited April 4, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well yes there is a possibility of a higher being, we could call it "God" or whatever.  There's just no evidence to back up that theory, so I disagree with you there.  You're trying to find evidence for the existence of god, but you won't find it.  All you have is faith, and that's fine, that's what belief in God has always been.

 

As a follow-up to the previous response to you, in contrast to it I say.....

 

THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY for the atheistic stance on the non-existence of God.

 

Why?   There's not a single evidence  - not even one - to allow for it.  

 

The cumulative evidence for God's existence (the possibility) already established the negation of atheism.  That would make an interesting thread - putting the shoe on the other foot.  I bet the only argument we'll ever hear would be lots of ahhhhming, and rebuttals along the line, "the onus is not on us to give evidence."  

Edited April 4, 2017 by betsy

[blackbird]

19 hours ago, betsy said:

 

You're missing the point, Moonlight.

We're talking about the POSSIBILITY of God's existence!  There are numerous evidences that support its possibility. 

 

 

God existence is better described as an absolute truth according to the bible.  There is no possibility that it is only a possibility. 

[Omni]

48 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God existence is better described as an absolute truth according to the bible.  There is no possibility that it is only a possibility. 

Boy you really bought the snake oil I see. I guess because you read it in man made book it must be true?

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Omni said:

Boy you really bought the snake oil I see. I guess because you read it in man made book it must be true?

Actually, he exemplifies religious belief perfectly.  Faith above all else.

[Omni]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Actually, he exemplifies religious belief perfectly.  Faith above all else.

My favorite bumper sticker I ever saw..."Since I gave up hope, I've felt much better"

[overthere]

It all comes from a translation problem in the Old Testament.  Everybody thought the scroll said that God created man, when in actual fact man created God.

[Omni]

7 minutes ago, overthere said:

It all comes from a translation problem in the Old Testament.  Everybody thought the scroll said that God created man, when in actual fact man created God.

And just like that, the die was cast.

[betsy]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

God existence is better described as an absolute truth according to the bible.  There is no possibility that it is only a possibility. 

 

Yes, I know.  Of course it's an absolutre truth.  You and I know that.  We firmly believe that.

 

However,  atheists and other non-Christians don't believe in the Bible. 

New Atheists also has mistakenly point to atheism as a "reasonable" stance  (which was propagandized by self-serving Richard Dawkins) -  and they ridicule Christianity as "unreasonable."   

I'm showing that it's actually atheism that believes in unicorns and faeries.  If they believe that life can simply  pop out of nothing - then, they're the ones who believe in magic.   

When challenged, they've got nothing to support their belief.  They're all simply chest-puffing and deflecting.....but not one of them can give a single evidence to support non-existence of God.

 

Science and logic, support the Bible.  I believe that God had created both for a special reason. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by betsy

[GostHacked]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

Yes, I have faith.   But I'm not debating with you guys based on faith alone!  Why would I debate simply citing faith with people who don't believe in my faith?   What am I giving here?  Am I not citing science,  and LOGIC?

All my arguments are science-based, and by LOGICAL reasoning.

Hard NO.. Nothing you presented was scientific by any definition of being scientific.

[GostHacked]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

 

Yes, I know.  Of course it's an absolutre truth.  You and I know that.  We firmly believe that.

God is an absolute truth? How does one prove that? No .. I don't expect an answer.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

God is an absolute truth? How does one prove that? No .. I don't expect an answer.

God does not attempt to prove his existence in the Bible.  He simply states "I am".   The evidence for his existence is everywhere in creation.   If anything, he might be laughing at those who think he does not exist.  He is infinitely more knowledgeable and powerful than anyone or any thing.   He has no need of anyone for anything because he is God and is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.  He knows everything, is in complete control of everything and is not in need of anything. 

[Moonlight Graham]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

God existence is better described as an absolute truth according to the bible.  There is no possibility that it is only a possibility. 

I guess it all depends on how much absolute truth you think is contained in the Bible, how much credibility you give it.

[Moonlight Graham]

14 hours ago, betsy said:

As a follow-up to the previous response to you, in contrast to it I say.....

THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY for the atheistic stance on the non-existence of God.

Why?   There's not a single evidence  - not even one - to allow for it.  

The cumulative evidence for God's existence (the possibility) already established the negation of atheism.  That would make an interesting thread - putting the shoe on the other foot.  I bet the only argument we'll ever hear would be lots of ahhhhming, and rebuttals along the line, "the onus is not on us to give evidence."  

I just don't agree.  I gave you my stance before.  What you have to understand is that there's different types of atheists.  There's atheists that believe there's no God/higher being and no possibility of it.  There's also atheists like myself that don't believe in a God/higher being because there's no evidence to confirm or deny such a being exists since we really don't know what the heck is out there beyond the universe.  I guess you could kinda call me an agnostic, or an agnostic atheist, i dunno. 

My belief in God is like my belief in ghosts:  I haven't seen any evidence of it myself, I haven't seen any compelling scientific evidence, and I'm not going to take other people's word for it based on the lack of evidence.

For me, it's enough to know that there are powerful forces & processes in the universe and beyond we don't yet understand, and for me I think it's important to be humble enough to admit to myself "I don't know what's out there, and some questions I'll never know the answer to". To me admitting that doesn't make the universe or the Earth any less beautiful.  Maybe it makes it even more beautiful because it's such a mystery. 

I don't want you to stop believing in God.  Faith is an important part of Christianity and always has been, honestly you don't even need to defend your belief in God to anyone else, other than just say "I believe because I have faith". But when you start making scientific claims that aren't accurate, then you'll have to defend those arguments.

[blackbird]

The proof of God is in the creation and in the Scriptures.  In the English language it is the King James Authorized Version.  It is an accurate preservation of the inspired original manuscripts.  Therefore if one has the KJV 1611 he/she may consider it as effectively God's inspired scriptures in the English language.  The Old Testament is the Hebrew bible and the New Testament was written by the Apostles and prophets.  "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."  2 Peter ch1 vs 21.

Men receive faith through the preaching of the bible.  That is God's ordained way of giving men faith.  Faith is a gift of God.  He could use any method he chooses to give men(and women) faith, but the bible tells us one of the main methods is through the bible.  "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."   Romans ch10 vs17.

People who are waiting until they see some kind of miracle such as a vision or a bolt of lighting with an appearance of an angel might be waiting a long time or never see it.  God has chosen the simplicity of his written revelation (called special revelation) to communicate with man.  The evidence of God in creation is referred to a general revelation. 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by blackbird

[Omni]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

Yes, I know.  Of course it's an absolutre truth.  You and I know that.  We firmly believe that.

Firmly believing something does in no way make it anywhere an absolute truth. But you are certainly free to buy whatever story's you wish.