dialamah Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 minute ago, betsy said: O don't agree with you that the Bible didn't "impose" misery on "innocent" people. God had set His rules. He doesn't force you to follow them. He's give you the choice. 1 You didn't even see my story of the minister who spent decades making the 'choice' to follow God's rules and suffered decades of misery because of it, did you. Or the facts of teenagers who realize they're attracted to others of their gender and how they're viewed and treated by the 'Christian' element in our society. Those are real people. Those are innocent people. And they live in misery because of "God's truth". Why don't you address that, Betsy? Doesn't God have an answer about why these people are so cursed, from birth apparently, while the rest of us are not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, dialamah said: Tell me a religion that doesn't teach those things, even if the definition of each sin varies slightly. Even the most primitive tribes had rules against murdering, thieving and stealing your caveman's wife. Then, as now, it doesn't stop that sort of behavior. Well, God had put His code in people's hearts. That's why you don't have to be religious to be good....you have an "instinct" for what is good. That's why cultures have similarities with their moral codes. Why do people automatically beseech God when something horrible, or something they didn't understand happen. Because we're hardwired to worship God - why would they even come up with that concept if we're not. Except that people ended up worshipping the wrong gods - they made idols or worshipped nature (that explains why ancient religious text have somewhat similarity in some of their narratives - including the big flood). God gave the Bible to set the record straight! Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, dialamah said: You didn't even see my story of the minister who spent decades making the 'choice' to follow God's rules and suffered decades of misery because of it, did you. Or the facts of teenagers who realize they're attracted to others of their gender and how they're viewed and treated by the 'Christian' element in our society. Those are real people. Those are innocent people. And they live in misery because of "God's truth". Why don't you address that, Betsy? Doesn't God have an answer about why these people are so cursed, from birth apparently, while the rest of us are not? You're giving anecdotal accounts. I can give too, accounts of people who'd experienced God, people who'd suffered and their faith all the more made strong because of it....because they don't take their eyes off the prize. This earthly life means nothing to them. Btw, did I say people don't sin? We don't transgress? When you give your life to God, to let Him do with it as He pleases.....and that you'd willingly and humbly accept as He wills......the heavy burden is lifted. It's like letting God take the driver seat and you just enjoy the ride. I've had many God experience. One thing I know.....obedience to God usually precedes an act of God. Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, betsy said: Well, wasn't that what you said??? I don't know where you live....but I can't even say life in Canada today is as worse as Jews living in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust. What more in a world where right and wrong don't exist. Because if everybody has his own interpretation of what is right and wrong - you might as well admit there isn't really any right and wrong! You said: 13 minutes ago, betsy said: Your imagination isn't healthy enough if you can only think this is already one of the worst existence for us. I did not say or claim that this existence is the worst. Thats your description not mine. I, like you can imagine far worse places than Canada. But that is entirely subjective again because it all depends upon who you are or where you are. Its not much fun living in Aleppo right now I am told . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 If you believe that a loving and caring God sets the rules of how we should live and punishes those/allows misfortune to befall those, who don't follow the rules and condemns those same to everlasting torment in the after life then, in my view, you are not a follower of God, but of the Devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, betsy said: Well, God had put His code in people's hearts. That's why you don't have to be religious to be good....you have an "instinct" for what is good. That's why cultures have similarities with their moral codes. Why do people automatically beseech God when something horrible, or something they didn't understand happen. Because we're hardwired to worship God - why would they even come up with that concept if we're not. Except that people ended up worshipping the wrong gods - they made idols or worshipped nature (that explains why ancient religious text have somewhat similarity in some of their narratives - including the big flood). God gave the Bible to set the record straight! You walk away from a direct question, twice now. Where is God for these people who, through no fault of their own, are living in misery due to God's laws? Why shouldn't his followers, who beseech him, find relief? What kind of loving God provides contradictory and ambiguous direction and then punishes those who 'get it wrong'? I wouldn't even follow a person who does that, never mind a supposed 'perfect' and omniscient God. If you aren't going to address the cases I related of the homosexual minister and the teenage kids, then perhaps don't bother answering at all. Just accept that your Christian faith is not even as compassionate as my atheistic humanism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 I have always thought that Canadians are level-headed people and don't really have any time for the religious bollocks; a sharp contrats to the people in the USA. That's what I thought. Maybe I thoght wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 5 hours ago, betsy said: I don't get why you reject the possibility of the supernatural without any evidence to support your belief. You don't get it because you probably don't want to. My belief it isn't possible is due to having never been presented with any evidence of its existence. I mean provable, testable scientific evidence. I've never read of anyone being able to verify any claims that the supernatural is real. Quote The probability of God's existence definitely outweighs the probability that He doesn't exist. So far, I've yet to see a single evidence to support the non-existence of God. I'm sure you've head this a 1000 times bu the onus is on you to provide evidence he/she/it exists. It's not mine to prove he/she/it doesn't exist. All I have for you, as I keep repeating, is the never-ending lack of evidence for the poistive claims that he/she/it does indeed exist. Quote So....on what ground do you stake your belief that the supernatural does not exist? Kindly explain I just did and as I said I also get why you don't get it. I'd dearly love for the supernatural to be real, it sounds like it would make the universe an even more fascinating place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Peter F said: If you believe that a loving and caring God sets the rules of how we should live and punishes those/allows misfortune to befall those, who don't follow the rules and condemns those same to everlasting torment in the after life then, in my view, you are not a follower of God, but of the Devil. I don't believe that God punishes those who don't follow His rules with misfortunes!! I never said that! In fact, I was just explaining to Dialamah that having misfortunes doesn't mean that you're being punished by God for displeasing Him! I even cited the story of Job (his friends were insisting that he must've offended God that's why he had all those misfortunes). I believe what the Bible says about the final judgement. There is a final judgement! There are those who'd be cast in hell, or eternal damnation, or the final death. God had set the rules that we may have eternal life. You think God is only kidding? That His Commandments aren't to be taken seriously, because there are no consequences? That's how Satan would try to deceive us. Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, eyeball said: You don't get it because you probably don't want to. My belief it isn't possible is due to having never been presented with any evidence of its existence. I mean provable, testable scientific evidence. I've never read of anyone being able to verify any claims that the supernatural is real. Why, have you been presented with any evidence that it isn't possible? The reason there isn't any scientific evidence is due to the fact that it is beyond the realm of science. It's capacity is limited. Science can only deal with the natural. Science had said so. Quote "Science is a particular way of knowing about the world. In science, explanations are limited to those based on observations and experiments that can be substantiated by other scientists." The National Academy of Sciences also says: "Science is not the only way of acquiring knowledge about ourselves and the world around us. Humans gain understanding in many other ways, such as through literature, the arts, philosophical reflection, and religious experience. https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/faq.html Unless science develops the capacity to be able to tackle the supernatural........of course, you'll never have a scientific evidence. But that doesn't mean the possibility of the supernatural doesn't exists. You're closing your mind to the realm BEYOND science. If science can acknowledge that, why couldn't you? Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, dialamah said: You walk away from a direct question, twice now. Where is God for these people who, through no fault of their own, are living in misery due to God's laws? Why shouldn't his followers, who beseech him, find relief? What kind of loving God provides contradictory and ambiguous direction and then punishes those who 'get it wrong'? I wouldn't even follow a person who does that, never mind a supposed 'perfect' and omniscient God. If you aren't going to address the cases I related of the homosexual minister and the teenage kids, then perhaps don't bother answering at all. Just accept that your Christian faith is not even as compassionate as my atheistic humanism. You think it's easy to deny our needs? I'm not only thinking of sex. To say that it's not easy to deny what we crave for, would be an understatement. Think of following a diet. How hard it is to walk away from that moist chocolate cake. That's what fighting temptation is all about! Temptation is not meant to be easy, otherwise it's not really temptation, is it? The spouse fighting the temptation to succumb to adultery, the parent who yearns for the carefree life and being tempted to abandon his family, addiction, poverty and all the misery that comes with it.......we all have our own crosses to bear, as the saying goes...... It's all about trust in God. Faith in Him. In all circumstances. With trust and faith it gets easier to bear. That's my answer to your question. Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, eyeball said: I'm sure you've head this a 1000 times bu the onus is on you to provide evidence he/she/it exists. It's not mine to prove he/she/it doesn't exist. All I have for you, as I keep repeating, is the never-ending lack of evidence for the poistive claims that he/she/it does indeed exist. Nope. Not this time. I provided evidences supporting the possibility of God/supernatural. Science does not reject that possibility - in fact it explained that it is BEYOND its realm. Science had also explained that science isn't the only way to gain knowledge and understanding about the world around us....and it listed religious experience as one area to gain understanding. You are rejecting the possibility of the supernatural. You go against science. The burden of proof now lies on your shoulders. Edited April 1, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 4 hours ago, Peter F said: There is no objective standard of Good because if there was then we would all share that standard and there would be no variation. But since there is variation there is no standard. Is there some sort of point singularity of objectivity required before we can agree on what is and isn't good? If not then I guess I'd have to conclude the only un-varying thing in the universe is Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It applies to absolutely everything in the universe including our viewpoints. This implies no one can be certain about what someone means when they say they believe in god. I could say I too believe but if we were to press each other on what we mean we would inevitably come to a point where we simply could not agree precisely on what it is we're looking at. You'd be swearing up and down that god is a particle and I'd be swearing just as loudly that god is a wave. Our disagreement would probably lead to the deaths of millions. Where's the good in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 minute ago, betsy said: I provided evidences supporting the possibility of God/supernatural. Great. Now you just have to provide evidence that supports the impossibility that you're wrong.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, eyeball said: Great. Now you just have to provide evidence that supports the impossibility that you're wrong.. If you can't provide anything to support your claim, then you've really got no argument at all. Edited April 2, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 Billions of positive claimants...billions upon billions...have failed to provide a single physical shred of evidence. Not a single iota. That's a staggeringly enormous body of evidence. How could the mere handful of atheists that exist in the known universe possibly provide more of nothing compared to that? You're asking the impossible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) On 4/1/2017 at 8:52 PM, eyeball said: Billions of positive claimants...billions upon billions...have failed to provide a single physical shred of evidence. Not a single iota. More like you're confusing the subject with macroevolution? Just because you keep your eyes closed, doesn't mean there aren't any evidence for God. I'm not going to try to persuade you....if you don't want to accept what's only reasonable and logical - as supported by science - what more can I say? Edited April 3, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 29 minutes ago, betsy said: I'm not going to try to persuade you....if you don't want to accept what's only reasonable and logical - as supported by science - what more can I say? That says it all, Betsy; funny how you can be such a hypocrite, to suggest that science supports the existence of god, which if it actually did such a crazy thing, it would have to support religions other than the megalomaniacal christian "religions". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 2 hours ago, hot enough said: That says it all, Betsy; funny how you can be such a hypocrite, to suggest that science supports the existence of god... That's torn it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hot enough said: That says it all, Betsy; funny how you can be such a hypocrite, to suggest that science supports the existence of god, which if it actually did such a crazy thing, it would have to support religions other than the megalomaniacal christian "religions". For the record, I didn't say science supports the existence of God. I said, science supports the possibility of the existence of God.. Big difference. Edited April 3, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, betsy said: I said, science supports the possibility of the existence of God.. Big difference. Just as it does for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It supports the possibility of The Flying Spaghetti Monster healing you with a touch of his [why are all these churches so damn sexist?] noodley appendage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, hot enough said: Just as it does for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It supports the possibility of The Flying Spaghetti Monster healing you with a touch of his [why are all these churches so damn sexist?] noodley appendage. Are you okay? You don't seem okay. That's a string of irrationality. Looks like you're going ballistic...... You react like Dracula reacting to the sight of the cross. All senseless hissing from his foul-smelling mouth.... Edited April 3, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, betsy said: Are you okay? You don't seem okay. Looks like you're going ballistic...... You react like Dracula reacting to the sight of the cross. Surely, a good christian like you would not seek to deny Pastafarians the right to worship their god as they see fit, would you? Edited April 3, 2017 by hot enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted April 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, hot enough said: Surely, a good christian like you would not seek to deny Pastafarians the right to worship as they see fit, would you? Come to Christ, hot enough. You have to break free and come to the Light. You may not realize it.....but your attempt at reasoning reveal more about you, and your master pulling your strings. Edited April 3, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted April 3, 2017 Report Share Posted April 3, 2017 All the best snake oil salesmen were preachers. Ain't nothin' changed there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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