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Can You Be Good Without God?


betsy

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18 hours ago, eyeball said:

My own conclusion about the bibles ficticiousness stems from the utter lack of any evidence for the supernatural phenomenon it routinely mentions right from page one on.

What is it that believers don't get about people's conclusions in this regard?

 

I don't get why you reject the possibility of the supernatural without any evidence to support your belief.

 

I just started a thread Evidence For God - just for the purpose of having a reference whenever we talk about probability and possibility!  The evidences for God are numerous, it's only practical to create a reference thread instead of trying to think about them every time somebody questions His existence.

The probability of God's existence definitely outweighs the probability that He doesn't exist.  So far, I've yet to see a single evidence to support the non-existence of God.

 

So....on what ground do you stake your belief that the supernatural does not exist?  Kindly explain.

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23 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

Some people mistakenly think that having something bad happen to you is your fault - that you are being punished by God for something you must've done.  Remember the story of Job - how his friends kept insisting that he must've displeased God in some way?  

We're going through life in this world.  The sun shines and sets on both the believers and non-believers.  It rains on the righteous and unrighteous.  That's just the way life is.

 

I was taught this by the leaders in my congregation.   They had the truth just as surely as you do.  

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I was taught this by the leaders in my congregation.   They had the truth just as surely as you do.  

 

There are false teachers - surely you know that if you've read the Bible?  The warnings in the Bible against false prophets/false teachings are numerous!

 

The truth is in the Bible. 

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41 minutes ago, betsy said:

However,  WITHOUT A STANDARD OF WHAT GOOD IS, we won't be having the same idea of what it is!  There wouldn't be a collective idea (among various cultures) of what is right and wrong! 

But I do have a standard of what good is and that standard is entirely subjective.  My standard of Good may or may not be compatible with yours or anyone elses. The same applies to you and everyone else. There is no objective standard of Good because if there was then we would all share that standard and there would be no variation. But since there is variation there is no standard.  Now, to you and the OP that would mean that there is no God. But that too is wrong there since I believe (without one iota of evidence to support that belief) that God exists nonetheless.

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4 minutes ago, Peter F said:

But I do have a standard of what good is and that standard is entirely subjective.

That is your standard.  My standard would be different. And so will the next guy.

SUBJECTIVE.  Exactly!

 

  If there's nothing objective to base it on - we'll have varying standards.

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16 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

There are false teachers - surely you know that if you've read the Bible?  The warnings in the Bible against false prophets/false teachings are numerous!

 

The truth is in the Bible. 

 

Yup.  To my old church, you are the false prophet.  To you, they are.  Since the verses each of you use to support your versions are clearly ambiguous and contradictory, I think if there is a God who had a specific plan for our 'salvation', he should have/would have provided much clearer instructions to his humans.  If he exists, I can only suppose he was so ambiguous in order to encourage us to look for our own answers and to move away from his.  If he doesn't exist, then the ambiguity in his texts is clearly the result of people attributing events in their time and in their context to him.

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yup.  To my old church, you are the false prophet.  To you, they are.  Since the verses each of you use to support your versions are clearly ambiguous and contradictory, I think if there is a God who had a specific plan for our 'salvation', he should have/would have provided much clearer instructions to his humans.  If he exists, I can only suppose he was so ambiguous in order to encourage us to look for our own answers and to move away from his.  If he doesn't exist, then the ambiguity in his texts is clearly the result of people attributing events in their time and in their context to him.

 

There is one way to find out which are false teachings.  You open up your Bible and find the truth.  The Bible will be consistent.  It will not contradict itself.  I was led by false teachings too.

 

It all boils down to the reason why you embrace Christianity.  If it's for the potlucks, and the social life.....or to look good in your community....I suppose the truth doesn't matter much.

 

However, if your reason is salvation and gaining eternal life with God....... then you owe it to yourself to know the truth, what God requires from you. 

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4 minutes ago, Peter F said:

When you, Betsy, open your Bible you, Betsy, find truth.  When I open it I find mythology .

Maybe....you're not really seeking......I can only think of Matthew 7:7.

I can only make assumptions about you......

 

I found it hard reading the Bible before I re-discovered Christ.  I didn't bother reading after the first two attempt.....until the day I stumbled onto this preacher on tv  (Charles Price), who was reading and explaining the verses.  He made it look so simple to read and understand, that I opened up the Bible to check out what he was reading.  And sure enough....

I've been reading my Bible ever since.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, betsy said:

That is your standard.  My standard would be different. And so will the next guy.

SUBJECTIVE.  Exactly!

 

  If there's nothing objective to base it on - we'll have varying standards.

Precisely. So, now what? Is the next step to then define a standard of Good that we can all agree on? Compromise a bit perhaps? Come to a conclusion entirely independent of the supposed Objective Good that exists no matter what we may agree upon. 

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17 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

There is one way to find out which are false teachings.  You open up your Bible and find the truth.  The Bible will be consistent.  It will not contradict itself.  I was led by false teachings too.

 
 

Yup I could do that.   Let's say that I open up my bible to 'find out the truth', I find out that God hates homosexuals and I should as well. Never mind that science shows that homosexuality exists throughout the natural world and has existed in humans since the beginning of them.    Science is clearly making things up.

Then I read about a man who was so desperate to be straight that he became a minister, got married, fathered daughters and strapped a bible to his genitals at night in an attempt to end his homosexual dreams.  Who fought his urges, and who never acted on them for most of his adult life. Where was God to help this man through his torment, who could have 'cured' him or even prevented him from having these urges, when he so clearly sought to follow God's will in this?   God was nowhere to be found, eh?  

And what about all the kids who are bullied, harassed and beaten for being homosexual - who are accused of choosing that as if teenagers yearn to be so outside their peer group that they'd 'choose' utter rejection over fitting in?  Who would risk being alienated from their parents and their community on a 'lark'?  Where is God for these kids, some of whom have been raised as Christians, who have and still do truly believe in God and yet who still yearn for sexual contact with someone of their own gender?    

The only thing that makes sense is what science tells us:  homosexuality isn't an aberration or abnormal; it's just part of sexuality for humans.   The bible is wrong, and so are Christians who continue to use the bible to reject and condemn homosexuals.  

So yeah, I guess the bible can help me find the truth.

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2 minutes ago, Peter F said:

Precisely. So, now what? Is the next step to then define a standard of Good that we can all agree on? Compromise a bit perhaps? Come to a conclusion entirely independent of the supposed Objective Good that exists no matter what we may agree upon. 

Can you imagine living in a world where our ideas of what is right and wrong are not consistent?

 

Especially when you believe that you have only one life to live, and therefore you want to live it to the fullest before you become nothing?  Do you imagine the kind of chaos we'll all be in?  The world of Mad Max would be a garden walk.

 

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Just now, betsy said:

Can you imagine living in a world where our ideas of what is right and wrong are not consistent?

Christianity doesn't give us a 'consistent' idea of right and wrong.  No religion does.  Instead, they teach us to hate others based on arbitrary rules and to reject fact in favor of myth.

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yup I could do that.   Let's say that I open up my bible to 'find out the truth', I find out that God hates homosexuals and I should as well. Never mind that science shows that homosexuality exists throughout the natural world and has existed in humans since the beginning of them.    Science is clearly making things up.

 

It all boils down to what your end goal is, Dialamah.  You've been given free will....and God gave the Word......that we may choose which path we want to walk.  I think the message of Jesus regarding this, is basically, take it or leave it.

Your choice.

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Christianity doesn't give us a 'consistent' idea of right and wrong.  No religion does.  Instead, they teach us to hate others based on arbitrary rules and to reject fact in favor of myth.

I don't care about other religions. I'm talking about Christianity.

God's command against murder isn't clear enough?  Adultery?  Worshipping other gods?  Theft?  They're not clear examples of right and wrong?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, betsy said:

Can you imagine living in a world where our ideas of what is right and wrong are not consistent?

 

Especially when you believe that you have only one life to live, and therefore you want to live it to the fullest before you become nothing?  Do you imagine the kind of chaos we'll all be in?  The world of Mad Max would be a garden walk.

 

I need not imagine such a world. It seems that we already exist in such a world where right and wrong are not consistent and vary from day to day and on the whims of each of us. Yet here I am still existing in a world that is in fact chaotic and definitely not consistent - so no need for my imagination to cook that world up: not even a MadMax scriptwriters imagination.

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2 minutes ago, betsy said:

It all boils down to what your end goal is, Dialamah.  You've been given free will....and God gave the Word......that we may choose which path we want to walk.  I think the message of Jesus regarding this, is basically, take it or leave it.

Your choice.

 

And this is the worst thing eh?  I show you how the bible's 'truth' has imposed misery on innocent people and you ignore all that to come up with some lame platitude. 

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Just now, Peter F said:

I need not imagine such a world. It seems that we already exist in such a world where right and wrong are not consistent and vary from day to day and on the whims of each of us. Yet here I am still existing in a world that is in fact chaotic and definitely not consistent - so no need for my imagination to cook that world up: not even a MadMax scriptwriters imagination.

Your imagination isn't healthy enough if you can only think this is already one of the worst existence for us.

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6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And this is the worst thing eh?  I show you how the bible's 'truth' has imposed misery on innocent people and you ignore all that to come up with some lame platitude. 

 

You didn't show me anything.  You're simply repeating what was taught to you by your leaders - and imposing it on the Bible like as if they're from the Bible.  

I don't agree with you that the Bible  "imposed" misery on "innocent" people.  God had set His rules.  You don't agree with them......well, He doesn't force you to follow them.  Instead of striking you dead where you stand for being defiant, He's given you the choice.  Life, or death.

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3 minutes ago, betsy said:

God's command against murder isn't clear enough?  Adultery?  Worshipping other gods?  Theft?

Tell me a religion that doesn't teach those things, even if the definition of each sin varies slightly.   Even the most primitive tribes had rules against murdering, thieving and stealing your caveman's wife.   Then, as now, it doesn't stop that sort of behavior.   

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10 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I don't think that Betsy. You do, not I. 

Well, wasn't that what you said???


 

Quote

 

Peter F

I need not imagine such a world. It seems that we already exist in such a world where right and wrong are not consistent and vary from day to day and on the whims of each of us.

 

I don't know where you live....but I can't even say life in Canada today is as worse as Jews living in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust.

What more in a world where right and wrong don't exist?  Because if everybody has his own interpretation of what is right and wrong - you might as well admit there isn't really any right and wrong!

 

If there is no consistent right or wrong - what kind of law are we going to have?

 

Have you seen lootings on tv?  Imagine that on a worldwide scale, and include rape and indiscriminate killings and tortures for pleasure.  That's just to give you an idea what could be. 

 

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