Altai Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Is not it a crime to prepare fake/false news ? So lets imagine if Michael Partner would go in the middle of the city square and he would yell out and he would say "Charles Hantomy stole my laptop, he is a thief.", 1) There would be many people believe in Michael despite Charles is innocent and he did nothing. 2) Even if Michael could not prove his claim, there would still be many people believe in him. 3) There would be many people who does not like Charles and use Michael's slander as a trump card against Charles in the future. 4) Even currently there may be people in this forum who started to suspect that this topic's subject may be true and Charles really stole Michael's laptop. 5) Even if Michael cannot prove his claim, there will be many people in the future that will fear of Charles and will remind him as a theft suspect. Does someone has such a right to prepare false/fake news and affect people's lifes in a bad manner ? Edited March 28, 2017 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 Yes...they do, even if it is not Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Altai said: Is not it a crime to prepare fake/false news ? So lets imagine if Michael Partner would go in the middle of the city square and he would yell out and he would say "Charles Hantomy stole my laptop, he is a thief.", ... Does someone has such a right to prepare false/fake news and affect people's lifes in a bad manner ? Not really sure where this is coming from.. Technically such a situation wouldn't be criminal (i.e. one over which you could get arrested by the government), but in many countries a person could be sued for libel or slander for making false statements. (Libel/Slander is not part of criminal law, but part of civil law.) In court, there would be the need to demonstrate that the statement 1) actually was false, and 2) actually caused harm. There may also be a need to illustrate that the intent in making the statement was malicious (i.e. that you deliberately intended to hurt someone). Its always a balance... the need to prevent someone from being harmed by false accusations, vs. the need to allow free speech in all its forms (including satire). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 There can be legal consequences when you make false claims that hurt others. You can be sued for libel or slander. There is a current case involving a well-known fake news promoter-- let's call him Phallus Jones, for the sake of argument-- who is now being sued by someone he slandered. Phallus has now made public apology to the business owner he slandered, but it's probably not enough to save Phallus from getting sued for a lot of money. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, segnosaur said: Not really sure where this is coming from.. Technically such a situation wouldn't be criminal (i.e. one over which you could get arrested by the government), but in many countries a person could be sued for libel or slander for making false statements. (Libel/Slander is not part of criminal law, but part of civil law.) In court, there would be the need to demonstrate that the statement 1) actually was false, and 2) actually caused harm. There may also be a need to illustrate that the intent in making the statement was malicious (i.e. that you deliberately intended to hurt someone). Its always a balance... the need to prevent someone from being harmed by false accusations, vs. the need to allow free speech in all its forms (including satire). I think someones freedom ends when they starts to harm others and affect their life in a bad manner. This rule includes freedom of speech too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, kimmy said: There can be legal consequences when you make false claims that hurt others. You can be sued for libel or slander. There is a current case involving a well-known fake news promoter-- let's call him Phallus Jones, for the sake of argument-- who is now being sued by someone he slandered. Phallus has now made public apology to the business owner he slandered, but it's probably not enough to save Phallus from getting sued for a lot of money. -k Being able to sue news agencies or journalists does not seem like a deterrent measure because these news are done every single day by many news agencies around the World. Should not they be punished more seriously for insistently making false/fake news ? Edited March 28, 2017 by Altai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Altai said: I think someones freedom ends when they starts to harm others and affect their life in a bad manner. This rule includes freedom of speech too. How do you know if someone's life is truly harmed in a "bad manner"? Do just hurt feelings count? Reputation with others? Or do you have to demonstrate a tangible loss (such as financial loss)? And do you apply the same rules to a famous person as you would to a relatively anonymous person? And how believable does it have to be? For example, if I say "Altai is really a space reptile from Mars who has come to earth to enslave us all", would that be considered something that would be valid to sue anyone over. After all, its pretty obvious that Altai is not a space reptile from Mars (since most people know that most space reptiles come from Venus.) If you set the bar too low and say "my hurt feelings are enough to count", then basically you end up with a chilling effect on all speech, on the chance someone might be offended. There was a very famous legal case a few years ago when Jerry Falwell sued Hustler Magazine after they published a satirical (and rather crude) piece making fun of Falwell. The U.S. supreme court deemed that such a piece was protected free speech, because 1) it was satire and obvious to a reasonably intelligent person that it was not accurate, and 2) Falwell was a public figure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, segnosaur said: How do you know if someone's life is truly harmed in a "bad manner"? Do just hurt feelings count? Reputation with others? Or do you have to demonstrate a tangible loss (such as financial loss)? And do you apply the same rules to a famous person as you would to a relatively anonymous person? And how believable does it have to be? For example, if I say "Altai is really a space reptile from Mars who has come to earth to enslave us all", would that be considered something that would be valid to sue anyone over. After all, its pretty obvious that Altai is not a space reptile from Mars (since most people know that most space reptiles come from Venus.) If you set the bar too low and say "my hurt feelings are enough to count", then basically you end up with a chilling effect on all speech, on the chance someone might be offended. There was a very famous legal case a few years ago when Jerry Falwell sued Hustler Magazine after they published a satirical (and rather crude) piece making fun of Falwell. The U.S. supreme court deemed that such a piece was protected free speech, because 1) it was satire and obvious to a reasonably intelligent person that it was not accurate, and 2) Falwell was a public figure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hustler_Magazine_v._Falwell If you tell lies about someones and accuse them with "bad" things, you will affect their life in a "bad" manner in various ways. Even if you tell lies with "nice" accusations, you will harm people in medium and long term. When you say "Altai is really a space reptile from Mars who has come to earth to enslave us all", noone will take you seriosly, me too, but if you keep doing these things all the time, you will start to harm people and me because you will start to disturb us and you dont have right to disturb people, be a public figure or be famous or be whatever you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, Altai said: If you tell lies about someones and accuse them with "bad" things, you will affect their life in a "bad" manner in various ways. Even if you tell lies with "nice" accusations, you will harm people in medium and long term. When you say "Altai is really a space reptile from Mars who has come to earth to enslave us all", noone will take you seriosly, me too, but if you keep doing these things all the time, you will start to harm people and me because you will start to disturb us and you dont have right to disturb people, be a public figure or be famous or be whatever you want. Ok, here's an exercise for you... in all the things you've posted (either on this forum, or others), can you honestly say there is absolutely nothing that you've ever said that might upset someone in some way (even if it was a joke that you did not mean seriously, or some difference of opinion.) I seriously doubt anyone is that clean. And if you think that someone might be upset.. under your suggested "rules" you would be libel to be sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 28, 2017 Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 57 minutes ago, segnosaur said: How do you know if someone's life is truly harmed in a "bad manner"? Do just hurt feelings count? Reputation with others? Or do you have to demonstrate a tangible loss (such as financial loss)? All that is easily proven. Just look at "the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility" study that has been deep sixed by our wonderful western media. Just ponder those numbers of innocents slaughtered because of the 911 lies. We are approaching, if we haven't already surpassed the numbers of Vietnamese murdered thru the Gulf of Tonkin lie. The number of US lies is enormous and still, unbelievably, there are folks who believe and trust these liars when the evidence is so clear, so overwhelming. Quote Last month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million. The 97-page report by the Nobel Peace Prize-winning doctors’ group is the first to tally up the total number of civilian casualties from US-led counter-terrorism interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The PSR report is authored by an interdisciplinary team of leading public health experts, including Dr. Robert Gould, director of health professional outreach and education at the University of California San Francisco Medical Center, and Professor Tim Takaro of the Faculty of Health Sciences at Simon Fraser University. Yet it has been almost completely blacked out by the English-language media, despite being the first effort by a world-leading public health organisation to produce a scientifically robust calculation of the number of people killed by the US-UK-led “war on terror”. http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted March 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2017 25 minutes ago, segnosaur said: Ok, here's an exercise for you... in all the things you've posted (either on this forum, or others), can you honestly say there is absolutely nothing that you've ever said that might upset someone in some way (even if it was a joke that you did not mean seriously, or some difference of opinion.) I seriously doubt anyone is that clean. And if you think that someone might be upset.. under your suggested "rules" you would be libel to be sued. You seem like confused. I am talking about "accusing people with untrue or unknown things", which is called in the dictionary as "lie". You are talking about being "oversensitive" about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 22 hours ago, Altai said: You seem like confused. I am talking about "accusing people with untrue or unknown things", which is called in the dictionary as "lie". You are talking about being "oversensitive" about anything. Oh, I know exactly what you meant. But my point was "accusing people with untrue things" is a rather broad topic, and includes things such as political satire (which shouldn't ever be forbidden), which often involves making up stuff which is false for comedic effect. (e.g. nobody thinks Trump is literally a baby, but photoshopping Trump's face on a newborn's body is a form of satire that pokes fun at Trump's mentality. Technically its "false" since its making something up.) As for being "oversensitive", again that's an issue of "let the punishment fit the crime", since as I pointed out before, usually Libel laws require people to illustrate actual harm if/when something fake is said about someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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