Quran have been attacked

[dialamah]

@Argus  From your link:

Quote

Muslims truly stand out as being among the most enthusiastic group of Canadian patriots. More than eight in ten are very proud to be Canadian (more so than the nonMuslim population) and this sentiment has strengthened over the past decade, especially in Quebec. Strong religious identity notwithstanding, Muslims are as likely as others in this country to say their Canadian identity is very important. And they agree with other Canadians on what makes Canada a great country: its freedom and democracy, and its multicultural diversity

 

 

Quote

Canadian-born Muslims (most of whom are second generation) stand out from immigrants in several ways. On the one hand they are the most integrated into Canadian society (having been born in the country), and this is reflected in their rejection of the patriarchal values more strongly espoused by their forebears. On the other hand, Canadian-born Muslims are also much more concerned than immigrants about the treatment of their community by the broader society. Compared with immigrants, they are more likely to express concerns about discrimination, to have experienced it personally, and to have felt inhibited about expressing political beliefs.

2

 

26 minutes ago, Argus said:

...Most strongly identify as both Muslim and Canadian, although the Muslim identity tends to be the stronger of the two, especially among individuals under 35 years of age. Among immigrants, attachment to Islam is more likely to have strengthened than weakened since moving to Canada.

 

And this generation is also the generation who feels the least accepted by Canadian society and is the most aware of discrimination by Canadians.  Do you suppose this is coicidence?  

Quote

Muslim youth (who also tend to be second generation Canadians) stand out as being the most religiously observant generation in the Muslim community. They are most likely to visit mosques for prayer on a regular basis, wear the hijab, and support the right to pray in schools. Compared with older Muslims, they identify primarily as Muslim rather than as Canadian, and express a slightly weaker sense of belonging to the country. They also report higher levels of discrimination and feel pessimistic about how Muslims will be treated in the future.

1

And this is exactly my point:  you take only one side as having validity and hammer on that incessantly, ignoring any kind of nuance.   You call me some zealot, but my goodness - at least I say often and clearly that Islam is a patriarchal religion and that is a problem and that some of the things some of them may believe should not be tolerated - you, on the other hand, refuse to allow any but the most negative characteristics of Muslims to inform your opinions, from integration to 'cultural' beliefs to economic contribution.   That is the very definition of zealot.

 

[Argus]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

@Argus  From your link:

And this generation is also the generation who feels the least accepted by Canadian society and is the most aware of discrimination by Canadians.  Do you suppose this is coicidence?  

Its irrelevant. If you note where they asked Muslims of the major things they don't like about Canada discrimination was way down the list, well below the weather. And nobody rejecting patriarchal values is going to be simultaneously covering their hair and body all the time while men go around in shorts and t-shirts.

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And this is exactly my point:  you take only one side as having validity and hammer on that incessantly, ignoring any kind of nuance.

No, I accept a clearly stated fact, such as how many Muslims are wearing the hijab as opposed to ten years ago and how many see themselves as Muslims first, and Canadians second. You on the other hand, take broad statements about being proud to be Canadian and read things into them.

As an example, there is nothing which says you can't be proud to be Canadian and still hate Jews and still think women who don't cover their hair are whores and should be beaten.

 

[dialamah]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

Its irrelevant. If you note where they asked Muslims of the major things they don't like about Canada discrimination was way down the list, well below the weather. And nobody rejecting patriarchal values is going to be simultaneously covering their hair and body all the time while men go around in shorts and t-shirts.

 

 

It's not irrelevant; it's part of the nuance you refuse to admit.   The point is that younger Muslims, even second generation ones, who are more likely to consider themselves Muslim first are also the ones most likely to feel that Canadians do not accept them.  

I bet if you asked Christians if they were 'Christian first' or 'Canadian first', the majority would say 'Christian first', because that is part of being Christian, as explained in this article:  

Quote

The pastors explain that our ultimate allegiance is to God, not government or country. One of the churches has launched a website (GodBeforeGovernment.org).
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/god-first-then-country-141405/#0AYyQsh6rCRFf9jV.99

 

Nobody is concerned by this, because most of us do understand that for religious people, God comes first.  This doesn't mean that they can't be loyal or committed Canadians; it just means they are religious.  

And note even as this younger, second generation of Muslims are becoming more religious, they are also rejecting the themes of patriarchy and anti-homosexuality that their parents and grandparents were raised with.    So what we have, when we put all this 'nuance' together are second generation Muslims who are more religious than their parents, more proud of being Canadian than previous generations and who are more likely to reject patriarchy and to accept the prevailing social attitude towards homosexuality - which is acceptance.   Kind of like Christians, eh?   Christians who put God first, who are proud to be Canadian, who believe in the rights and freedoms Canada offers, who may or may not approve of homosexuality, and who may or may not embrace patriarchy as "God's way".   

 

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

No, I accept a clearly stated fact, such as how many Muslims are wearing the hijab as opposed to ten years ago and how many see themselves as Muslims first, and Canadians second. You on the other hand, take broad statements about being proud to be Canadian and read things into them.

 

 

I take the broad statements of the people who carried out the survey and analyzed the results over the one-sided statements of an anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant commentator on a political forum.   

Did you even note that Muslim Canadians are more proud to be Canadian than non-Muslims, and that pride has grown in the last decade?   Here, 'facts and figures' that you choose to ignore in favor of the single point you believe buttresses your anti-Muslim argument.    

[-1=e^ipi]

22 hours ago, dialamah said:

A law against Islamaphobia would only compromise Freedom of Speech if it it defined Islamapobia as including legitimate criticism, or any criticism.  I understand this is what some people are afraid of.

 

Or... if it were left undefined and up to the discretion of unelected judges in our inferior common law system.

[-1=e^ipi]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Among those who consider both religion and country to be very important to their identity (72% of the population), half (50%) say that being Muslim is more important, compared with 15 percent who place greater emphasis on being Canadian, and 27 percent who maintain that both parts of their identity are equally important.

To be fair, to me, being an atheist is more important than being Canadian. Some people just don't value nationalism very highly. So I don't see anything inherently wrong with most Muslims finding religion more important than Nationality.

[-1=e^ipi]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Its irrelevant. If you note where they asked Muslims of the major things they don't like about Canada discrimination was way down the list, well below the weather. And nobody rejecting patriarchal values is going to be simultaneously covering their hair and body all the time while men go around in shorts and t-shirts.

 

Interestingly, environments where men are modestly dressed in a suit while women are wearing skimpy outfits are also called patriarchal.

 

All roads lead to patriarchy apparently.

Edited April 1, 2017 by -1=e^ipi

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

 

Or... if it were left undefined and up to the discretion of unelected judges in our inferior common law system.

 

True, and that happens a lot in the legal system.   

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Did you even note that Muslim Canadians are more proud to be Canadian than non-Muslims, and that pride has grown in the last decade?   Here, 'facts and figures' that you choose to ignore in favor of the single point you believe buttresses your anti-Muslim argument.   

Beware data that could be purposely weighted to be misleading. While it's good to see the Muslim statistics for "Very Proud" to be that high, it doesn't mean much without comparison to other recent immigrants. Most of them would be smart to say "Very proud".

Also the comparison to non-Muslims is weighted poorly, because they are a huge majority and covers all regions of Canada, including Quebecers whom would almost all say "not VERY proud". And they represent some ~ 8 Million people, about 20% of the population. It's enough to take the number down.

The only source I could find-

https://www.statista.com/statistics/683399/canadian-public-opinion-on-national-pride-by-province/

 

[dialamah]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The only source I could find-

https://www.statista.com/statistics/683399/canadian-public-opinion-on-national-pride-by-province/

 

I couldn't look because they want me to sign up, and I just don't want to.

But why is this data more 'valid' than the data from Environics?  

And why would you characterize the responses of immigrants to be 'smart' instead of honest?   People who *choose* to come here do so for a reason, especially those who had a good life and a well-paid professional career in their home country and come here to end up working as janitors or taxi-drivers.   

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I couldn't look because they want me to sign up, and I just don't want to.

Screen shot-

[dialamah]

24 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Also the comparison to non-Muslims is weighted poorly, because they are a huge majority and covers all regions of Canada, including Quebecers whom would almost all say "not VERY proud". And they represent some ~ 8 Million people, about 20% of the population. It's enough to take the number down.

 

I missed this the first time.   If I understand the preamble to the Environics study correctly, they addressed this by interviewing the same number of non-Muslims in roughly the same ratios as the general population across the country.

Thanks for the screenshot.  

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And why would you characterize the responses of immigrants to be 'smart' instead of honest?   People who *choose* to come here do so for a reason, especially those who had a good life and a well-paid professional career in their home country and come here to end up working as janitors or taxi-drivers.   

I've met guys like that. Presumably life is better here as a taxi driver than being a neurosurgeon in their place of birth. I tell you we have the most highly educated taxi-driving workforce in the world in this country.

Let's say you're a Muslim who becomes a Canadian citizen. Thanks god, you don't have to go back to that little village in Bangladesh because life is so much better here. One day the phone rings. Someone asks, "Would you say you are proud to be a Canadian, or Very proud?". There is only one smart answer to give,regardless of personal opinion...

[hot enough]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

One day the phone rings. Someone asks, "Would you say you are proud to be a Canadian, or Very proud?". There is only one smart answer to give,regardless of personal opinion...

There is only one answer to give and it is the answer that is being demanded by racists and racist politicians, like Kellie Leitch. Are there other racist politicians I should be aware of?

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

It's not irrelevant; it's part of the nuance you refuse to admit.   The point is that younger Muslims, even second generation ones, who are more likely to consider themselves Muslim first are also the ones most likely to feel that Canadians do not accept them.  

If you dress and behave like an outsider it's small wonder many Canadians don't accept you.

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

I bet if you asked Christians if they were 'Christian first' or 'Canadian first', the majority would say 'Christian first', because that is part of being Christian, as explained in this article:  

The problem with the comparison is even those who consider themselves to be Christians first and foremost do not seem to identify with Christians in other lands the way Muslims do. They might consider themselves Christian, but they aren't going to murder people in outrage that some Christians overseas are, in their mind, being abused. There is also no conflict between Canada or the West, and Christianity, while there most definitely IS conflict with the Muslim world. Further, there is very little conflict between Canada's value system and that of Christianity, since Canada's culture is derived from Judaeo-christian values. On the other hand, there is enormous conflict with Muslim laws and values.

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

And note even as this younger, second generation of Muslims are becoming more religious, they are also rejecting the themes of patriarchy and anti-homosexuality that their parents and grandparents were raised with.  

As I have already said, people who reject the theme of patriarchy are not going to be donning bukhas and hijabs. Actions speak louder than words here.

 

[OftenWrong]

32 minutes ago, hot enough said:

There is only one answer to give and it is the answer that is being demanded by racists and racist politicians, like Kellie Leitch. Are there other racist politicians I should be aware of?

Canadian is not a race. Obviously, you know nothing about sociology. 

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

If I understand the preamble to the Environics study correctly, they addressed this by interviewing the same number of non-Muslims in roughly the same ratios as the general population across the country.

Ok, thanks. These "normalizations" are often complicated.

[hot enough]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Canadian is not a race. Obviously, you know nothing about sociology. 

Would your explanation be any weirder than your reply?

[dialamah]

57 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I've met guys like that. Presumably life is better here as a taxi driver than being a neurosurgeon in their place of birth. I tell you we have the most highly educated taxi-driving workforce in the world in this country.

 

 

My sister worked with immigrants before she went to Egypt.   Some might be lying, for sure, but many are surprised when they get here that the skills and education they have aren't recognized in Canada.  Your assumption that many/most lie is not necessarily reality.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by dialamah

[OftenWrong]

6 minutes ago, hot enough said:

Would your explanation be any weirder than your reply?

My reply IS the explanation. Let me know what I can assist you with.

[OftenWrong]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My sister worked with immigrants before she went to Egypt.   Some might be lying, for sure, but many are surprised when they get here that the skills and education they have aren't recognized in Canada.  Your assumption that many/most lie is not necessarily reality.  

I don't think they're all lying either. Many have diplomas that are worthless here, don't meet our standards. Usually there are way for them to become properly certified, provided they are willing to work hard for it. It's not easy, for anyone.

Is your sister living there now?

[dre]

On 3/31/2017 at 9:37 AM, AngusThermopyle said:

You believe that watching people slaughter each other would be fun. There really is nothing I can say that would adequately display the depth of disgust I feel about your idea of fun.

Well people are killing each other anyways... And the way I look at it, is that our conservative hawks fighting to the death with their conservative hawks is kinda like criminal gang members killing each other. Its sort of a good thing... violent minded people dying.

And you can be as disgusted as you want, but these sort of spectacles have been popular with common folk since ancient times. It would make for compelling TV.

[OftenWrong]

On 2017-03-31 at 0:47 PM, dialamah said:

Would you say the same about the Ottawa Protocol, the various motions condmning anti-Semitism passed over the years, and the motion condemning Islamaphobia that passed late last year? 

Not sure about the protocol, since it is fairly new. But Ernst Zundel comes to mind.

[hot enough]

54 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not sure about the protocol, since it is fairly new. But Ernst Zundel comes to mind.

I notice a resemblance.

 Except that he is more eloquent in his fabrications. 

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, hot enough said:

I notice a resemblance.

 Except that he is more eloquent in his fabrications. 

Not sure what you mean. Resemblance to whom?

[Benz]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎27 at 8:26 AM, scribblet said:

Are other religions given their own dedicated prayer rooms in our secular public schools; there have been complains about disbursing bibles in some schools, Christmas trees etc. - yet - they make special allowance for one particular faith, a concept alien to our secular all inclusive public schools.  Do we want to follow the path of one Australian school were there are Muslim only washrooms, should we customize our schools to accommodate religious beliefs - Should children from religious families insist that their children be excused from compulsory music and gym classes, should we change our system and practices to accommodate one religion.  NO - we need to stop the insidious creep of religious apartheid  and segregation from our facilities.   

and BTW, no one has even remotely suggested that our schools or any place else be 'white again',  all that is being asked is to keep religion and it's practices out of our schools along with ending segregation of our students in various activities, including prayers.

ETA:   It's not just Muslim prayers that are allowed, they are also allowing sermons..   are other religions given that privilege?

When I look at the link you provided, it says that the school allows the same thing to all religions and that they are doing that for a very long time.  So what makes you say that the treatment is different with the muslims? Do they have an imam coming overthere every friday or the students are alone?

I agree with you that the religion has no place in a secular school. However, it means ALL religions should not be in schools.

The school's point is, it does not cost them anything, it's not taking school time since it is at lunch time, it is not disturbing anyone or anything. Yes, it is all true and I agree. Neverthenless, would we let a political organization to take a room in a school like that? Would we allow any sort of organization to do a weekly meeting of any kind within the school's walls? What if a group of students use a room like that during lunch time to talk about the return of Inquisition?

People are free to practice their religion in public places, in private and in places of worship. A public school does not fit into those categories, nor would a police station, justice court or ice rink hockey. The religions are so free, they have so many advantages, they must leave our public schools alone. Spending time to worship a god during lunch time instead of being with your classmates from other religions is not going to ease integration and good relations.

At least it is not every day. But it would get less attention if it would be just once a month.