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Are our kids falling behind?


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20 hours ago, ?Impact said:

I don`t see anyone out protesting against special schools (generally high schools) devoted to sports and performing arts.

Why would I protest ?  Our local school board offers the usual , standard and mandatory provincial curriculum in langauge arts, science, math, phys ed, social studies.  After that, students are free to pursue whatever else is offered by the shcool- languages, fine arts, hockey or whatever.

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On 3/13/2017 at 3:54 PM, Bonam said:

I think the problem is less with the details of the curriculum and more with culture. Americans and Canadians don't really care about / appreciate math and science, especially not as kids/teens. Often, the teachers teaching these subjects are not particularly interested in them themselves, and fail to inspire the students and instill interest in them. The few kids who show an innate interest or ability for math/science are usually bullied and made fun of as nerds, rather than praised and respected (praise and respect instead goes to students who perform well in athletics, or, in some schools, performing arts). 

At the elementary and high school level it would take a giant cultural shift, which is not likely to happen. If anything, the culture is only shifting farther away from math and science (or even reason, logic, and facts) and towards sport, emotion, art, and subjectivity. This, likely, is not fixable. One possibility might be special science and math oriented elementary and high schools for kids that show an early interest/aptitude in these fields, though such measures would likely be opposed by various groups based on arguments about inequality, development, etc. 

On the other hand, university programs in these subjects in the US and Canada are excellent, and once students make it to that level, North American universities produce many of the worlds leading scientists, mathematicians, and engineers. And many of the kids in Asian countries that excel in these fields come to the US and Canada to take these university programs. 

Therefore, the most realistic approach to try to compete with the rest of the world in math and science is to provide significant incentives for promising university students in these fields from other countries to stay here once they complete their education, rather than going back to their country of origin. Currently, for example, the US makes it very difficult for Bachelor's, Master's, and even PhDs in STEM fields to stay in the country permanently after finishing their degrees (they have to go through the very difficult and burdensome H1B process, sponsored by an employer - or a few other also burdensome variations such as the NIW). So, for the US, I would recommend adding new provisions to the immigration system which allow foreign-born high performing graduates from US universities in STEM fields to apply directly for permanent residency without employer sponsorship. For Canada, I would recommend adding new provisions to the points system which increase the points given for high performing graduates in STEM fields from US and Canadian universities.

People graduating with A averages from top universities in STEM fields should not be having a hard time being allowed to stay in the US and Canada, but sadly, every year, thousands of such individuals are forced to return to their country of origin rather than being allowed to stay. 

Asians are not interested or being brainwashed into the beliefs of political correctness and multiculturalism like other Canadians and Americans students are being brainwashed in. Asian parents want their children to succeed in life while Canadian and American parents want their children to know more about the rest of the world and their culture and screw their own. At least that is what I am getting these days from the North American gullible parents. 

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6 hours ago, Altai said:

First of all you have to teach your kids how to use their thinking power. If you prevent them to question events, they will be like zombies. If you prevent a young person who questions how TTowers were collapsed, they will be idiots in the future. 

I have invented my own "effective thinking method" and in the future I will teach it to all kids in the World. 

Current corrupt system in the World gives nothing to kids. Kids are just adapted to study at some schools and having a good job and a plump pension. Noone is interested with their thinking power.

Political correctness and multicuturalism, and sex classes for kids is what is destroying the minds of the students today. You are right, students are not encouraged to ask questions other than what the system wants them to know or ask. The education system is full of radical liberal left wing nut jobs that are polluting the minds of our young, and sad to say most grown ups also. Hollywood and the entertainment industry, and the buying of a new and more up to date cellphone is what most of our young and old seem to be more interested in. Most people know more about the life of Lady Gaga than they do about their own countries history. The continued brainwashing is working well. 

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2 hours ago, taxme said:

Asians are not interested or being brainwashed into the beliefs of political correctness and multiculturalism like other Canadians and Americans students are being brainwashed in. Asian parents want their children to succeed in life while Canadian and American parents want their children to know more about the rest of the world and their culture and screw their own. At least that is what I am getting these days from the North American gullible parents. 

I think the issue is Americans and Canadians are disrespectful to teachers and Asians are not. 

Edited by herples
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17 hours ago, herples said:

I think the issue is Americans and Canadians are disrespectful to teachers and Asians are not. 

That is because of the crap that most Canadian and American children and teenagers listen too and watch on TV which appears to want to teach them that it is ok to rebel against the system, and not worry about getting on in life professionally like Asians do. They are taught that what is good for them is more indoctrination like becoming an environmentalist, encourage more diversity, support gay rights, be pro-multicultural, and encourage more hatred towards those who want to do good for them. Our kids and teenagers today are really brainwashed into becoming politically correct zombies. The Hollywood entertainment industry and having the latest new cell phone is what it is all about to strive for. Asians appear to do the opposite of what our youth are taught today. They want to get ahead in life. Our youth are taught not too. At least that is the way I read things now. 

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4 hours ago, taxme said:

That is because of the crap that most Canadian and American children and teenagers listen too and watch on TV which appears to want to teach them that it is ok to rebel against the system, and not worry about getting on in life professionally like Asians do. They are taught that what is good for them is more indoctrination like becoming an environmentalist, encourage more diversity, support gay rights, be pro-multicultural, and encourage more hatred towards those who want to do good for them. Our kids and teenagers today are really brainwashed into becoming politically correct zombies. The Hollywood entertainment industry and having the latest new cell phone is what it is all about to strive for. Asians appear to do the opposite of what our youth are taught today. They want to get ahead in life. Our youth are taught not too. At least that is the way I read things now. 

The issue is that whenever kids get into trouble or do poorly at school it is never the student's fault it is the teacher's fault. We blame the people teaching instead of making kids take responsibility for their actions or lack of. Kids also hear it at home how teachers are unfair and don't know what they are doing or that the subject being taught has no relevance. 

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3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Math is boring.

Once you relate math to figuring out the real world, it becomes very interesting. It could be counting your money, scoring a game of darts, calculating the ballistic trajectory of that cannon ball to defeat you enemy, or figuring out the mysteries of the physical universe. Applied mathematics is very exciting, our modern world would be nowhere without it.

 

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15 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Once you relate math to figuring out the real world, it becomes very interesting. It could be counting your money, scoring a game of darts, calculating the ballistic trajectory of that cannon ball to defeat you enemy, or figuring out the mysteries of the physical universe. Applied mathematics is very exciting, our modern world would be nowhere without it.

I love statistics.  But I don't like calculating them.  I've taken university classes on statistics.  I find analyzing the statistics far more interesting than calculating them, so I let other people do that part LOL.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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22 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Once you relate math to figuring out the real world, it becomes very interesting. It could be counting your money, scoring a game of darts, calculating the ballistic trajectory of that cannon ball to defeat you enemy, or figuring out the mysteries of the physical universe. Applied mathematics is very exciting, our modern world would be nowhere without it.

 

I mostly like applied math as well. Was never particularly interested in the abstract stuff. Proofs and theorems and number theory and all are nice and good to understand how it's done so that you have an appreciation for the structure of mathematics but it was never very interesting to actually do. But when you actually apply math to solve a real world problem, it's fun and exciting. 

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47 minutes ago, Bonam said:

I mostly like applied math as well. Was never particularly interested in the abstract stuff. Proofs and theorems and number theory and all are nice and good to understand how it's done so that you have an appreciation for the structure of mathematics but it was never very interesting to actually do. But when you actually apply math to solve a real world problem, it's fun and exciting. 

 

Mathematics is just another language...actually many languages that were developed to solve real and theoretical problems.   I had a university prof who insisted that we call it "The Calculus" instead of just "Calculus" in reverence to Sir Issac Newton.    People who were only interested in plug and chugging formulas rarely had a good understanding of the underlying concepts that made the math work.

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Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

Mathematics is just another language...actually many languages that were developed to solve real and theoretical problems.   I had a university prof who insisted that we call it "The Calculus" instead of just "Calculus" in reverence to Sir Issac Newton.    People who were only interested in plug and chugging formulas rarely had a good understanding of the underlying concepts that made the math work.

True. There's a whole spectrum between just doing "plug and chug" and being a mathematician, though. 

I got to take a gradient of a vector potential at work today. Definitely the most mathy thing I've done for work in a while. 

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15 minutes ago, Bonam said:

True. There's a whole spectrum between just doing "plug and chug" and being a mathematician, though. 

I got to take a gradient of a vector potential at work today. Definitely the most mathy thing I've done for work in a while. 

 

Anecdotally, I have reason to believe that math education at the secondary level has been watered down for several socio-economic reasons.  Students who aspire to such theoretical things are moved into "advanced placement" classes.   But decades ago, the underlying math theory was laid down at the middle/junior and high school level so students were ready for higher level mathematics in university.

Some disciplines have fallen out of academic favour....vector theory / linear algebra, Euclidean geometry, imaginary numbers, etc.    Then these kids get to college and wonder why they can't handle the work.  YouTube only goes so far.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Anecdotally, I have reason to believe that math education at the secondary level has been watered down for several socio-economic reasons.  Students who aspire to such theoretical things are moved into "advanced placement" classes.   But decades ago, the underlying math theory was laid down at the middle/junior and high school level so students were ready for higher level mathematics in university.

Some disciplines have fallen out of academic favour....vector theory / linear algebra, Euclidean geometry, imaginary numbers, etc.    Then these kids get to college and wonder why they can't handle the work.  YouTube only goes so far.

Well, all education at the secondary level is kind of watered down. School is basically daycare until you get to college. I don't think there's anything I ever learned in a year of a class at high school that I couldn't have learned in a single evening on wikipedia... other than social skills in interacting with my peers, I suppose. 

Realistically, you can't force math on unreceptive minds. But it would be nice if students that have an interest and aptitude could be identified early and given the proper opportunities to excel, rather than serving out years in dull daycare meant for all the kids who aren't paying attention. Even skipping a year or two or three ahead or taking advanced placement is not really fulfilling the potential of someone who has real talent. I took math and science classes in university starting in grade 10 but my parents had to fight for me to have that opportunity. When it comes to sports or music or performing arts, there are plentiful opportunities in schools for a person to develop to their maximum potential, but not so for academics. 

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16 minutes ago, Bonam said:

.... I took math and science classes in university starting in grade 10 but my parents had to fight for me to have that opportunity. When it comes to sports or music or performing arts, there are plentiful opportunities in schools for a person to develop to their maximum potential, but not so for academics. 

 

And that option is being made available to more students who don't want to waste their academic time with the least common denominator approach.

I was lucky and got a few great teachers who moved me on to more challenging work.  Classes got smaller and were attended by people who showed more interest and aptitude.    This was all before the curse and blessing of handheld programmable / graphing calculators.  My kid didn't even know what graph paper was.

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44 minutes ago, Bonam said:

I don't think there's anything I ever learned in a year of a class at high school that I couldn't have learned in a single evening on wikipedia... other than social skills in interacting with my peers, I suppose.

I don't think math can be learned in a single evening on wikipedia. Yes, if you already know it and need to jump back for a refresher on one topic then it might help, but you are not going to be able to put it into practice without the practice (even if you knew it before). Things like simplifying in algebra might come back quickly, but do you remember the quadratic formula and would you be able to put it into practice today? Can you still solve trigonometry problems with a table or even a calculator? Certainly if you want to spend some time researching a single problem then yes today's resources make that possible, but is it efficient if you have many problems to solve.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/16/2017 at 1:11 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Fast Fourier transforms are sexy.....not boring.

Very sexy.

 

On 3/17/2017 at 1:54 AM, Bonam said:

I mostly like applied math as well. Was never particularly interested in the abstract stuff. Proofs and theorems and number theory and all are nice and good to understand how it's done so that you have an appreciation for the structure of mathematics but it was never very interesting to actually do. But when you actually apply math to solve a real world problem, it's fun and exciting. 

You should read a book on cryptography. Then you can see the usefulness of abstract math.

 

On 3/17/2017 at 4:25 AM, ?Impact said:

I don't think math can be learned in a single evening on wikipedia.

I strongly disagree. I've learned lots of math topics in a single evening on wikipedia. Wikipedia is great.

 

On 3/17/2017 at 4:25 AM, ?Impact said:

Things like simplifying in algebra might come back quickly, but do you remember the quadratic formula and would you be able to put it into practice today?

Why would you ever forget such a useful formula?

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