betsy Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) What people like Romeo Saganash refuse to acknowledge is that the Residential schools weren't all that bad. Yes, there were disastrous results.....BUT, keep in mind that the intent was for the betterment of aboriginals. Who would honestly think that the government came up with the idea of residential schools to deliberately screw up indigenous people? We are now in an era of guilt-ridden- breast-beating-atonement-and apology....and it's very much politicized. Of course, liberals and socialists latch on to these tragic stories by those who suffered, for their own agenda. Lynn Beyak, was correct in her opinion. Quote The National Post has carried many stories about these schools before and since that apology. And every time we do, it is interesting to see that most of the letters we receive argue that the schools have been unfairly portrayed in the media. Letter writers commenting on that story this week complained that the article lacked important historical context. “Nice work, National Post, as you continue to dump on the charitable work accomplished by generations of selfless missionaries, physicians, nurses and teachers of the Canadian North,” wrote C. Lutz, of Haliburton, Ont. “By today’s standards, 4,000 deaths out of a total of 150,000 students is shocking,” wrote Russel Williams of Georgeville, Que. “But given the period covered, 1870 to 1996, it may compare quite favourably with Canada at large, or Canadian aboriginal communities specifically, for the same period. One must bear in mind that much of this period predates immunization for smallpox, whooping cough, and diphtheria. It also predates penicillin for treatment of TB. Given the above, perhaps the statistic is not as alarming as it first might seem.” “It was undoubtedly a terrible thing to be taken from your family, but in the early days, the reserves were impoverished and 90% of First Nations people were infected with tuberculosis,” added Michelle Stirling. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/paul-russell-could-it-be-that-residential-schools-werent-so-bad Edited March 10, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, betsy said: Who would honestly think that the government came up with the idea of residential schools to deliberately screw up indigenous people? They didn't come up with it themselves, religious people had a lot to do with it too. They probably relished the thought of diddling with little kids minds as much as they did their bodies. Part and parcel of making people suffer so they would be more amenable to the ministrations of the priests...like introducing diseases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 30 minutes ago, betsy said: BUT, keep in mind that the intent was for the betterment of aboriginals L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs - The road to hell is paved with good intentions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBeaver Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, betsy said: What people like Romeo Saganash refuse to acknowledge is that the Residential schools weren't all that bad. Yes, there were disastrous results.....BUT, keep in mind that the intent was for the betterment of aboriginals. Who would honestly think that the government came up with the idea of residential schools to deliberately screw up indigenous people? We are now in an era of guilt-ridden- breast-beating-atonement-and apology....and it's very much politicized. Of course, liberals and socialists latch on to these tragic stories by those who suffered, for their own agenda. Lynn Beyak, was correct in her opinion. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/paul-russell-could-it-be-that-residential-schools-werent-so-bad If you read the commission's report on residential schools you will be horrified. 6000 kids dying and many thousands more scarred for life is no joke. 60% of the abuses occurred under catholics, yet they have never apologized not offered restitution. Trudeau's taking the hit for them like the good Jesuit he is and putting the bill on Canada, not the religious institutions that propagated the abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said: If you read the commission's report on residential schools you will be horrified. 6000 kids dying and many thousands more scarred for life is no joke. 60% of the abuses occurred under catholics, yet they have never apologized not offered restitution. Trudeau's taking the hit for them like the good Jesuit he is and putting the bill on Canada, not the religious institutions that propagated the abuse. http://www.cccb.ca/site/eng/media-room/files/2630-apology-on-residential-schools-by-the-catholic-church Still a crappy thing that was done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBeaver Posted March 10, 2017 Report Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) The damage is done, two generations were forcibly separated from their culture and families, no amount of apologies can change that. The lyrics are quite poignant. You gotta go and get Angry at all of my honestyYou know I try but I don't do too well with apologies I hope I don't run out of Time could someone call the refereeCause I just need one more shot at forgiveness I know you know that I made those mistakes maybe once or twice And by once or twice I Mean Maybe a couple a hundred times So let me oh let me Redeem oh redeem oh my self tonight Cause I just need one more shot at second chances YeahIs it too late now to say sorry Cause I’m missing more than just your body Is it too late now to say sorry Yeah I know that I let you down Is it too late to say I'm sorry now I’m sorry yeahSorry yeahSorryYeah I know that I let you downIs it too late to say I’m sorry nowI'll take every single piece of the blame If you want me too But you know that there is no innocent one in this game for twoI'll go I'll go and then You go you go out and spill the truth Can we both say the words and forget this YeahIs it too late now to say sorry Cause I’m missing more than just your body Is it too late now to say sorry Yeah I know that I let you down Is it too late to say I'm sorry now Edited March 10, 2017 by BillyBeaver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 hours ago, betsy said: What people like Romeo Saganash refuse to acknowledge is that the Residential schools weren't all that bad. Yes, there were disastrous results.....BUT, keep in mind that the intent was for the betterment of aboriginals. Who would honestly think that the government came up with the idea of residential schools to deliberately screw up indigenous people? From http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools/: "Residential schools were government-sponsored religious schools established to assimilate Indigenous children into Euro-Canadian culture." They were a Christian missionary project in step with the Canadian gov to kidnap aboriginal children and strip them of whatever culture they had left. Hitler also wanted to bring strength and pride back to Germany, which is why he was elected on those ideas people thought were dandy at the time. Oh and Trump wants to make America great again by being a racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) You're all beating the same drum, and conveniently closing your eyes to this fact: Quote “By today’s standards, 4,000 deaths out of a total of 150,000 students is shocking,” wrote Russel Williams of Georgeville, Que. “But given the period covered, 1870 to 1996, it may compare quite favourably with Canada at large, or Canadian aboriginal communities specifically, for the same period. One must bear in mind that much of this period predates immunization for smallpox, whooping cough, and diphtheria. It also predates penicillin for treatment of TB. Given the above, perhaps the statistic is not as alarming as it first might seem.” “It was undoubtedly a terrible thing to be taken from your family, but in the early days, the reserves were impoverished and 90% of First Nations people were infected with tuberculosis,” added Michelle Stirling. I'm not saying there's no harm done. Yes indeed, it was awful to separate kids from parents, but let's not gloss over the tragic only. Let's not completely ignore the positives. Edited March 11, 2017 by betsy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 Betsy, the purpose of the residential schools was to eradicate native culture by separating the next generations from that culture. We are beating the same drum because that is the drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herples Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 How is attempting to stamp out the culture out of a child a betterment for the First Nations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 hours ago, herples said: How is attempting to stamp out the culture out of a child a betterment for the First Nations? Answer- when it's a culture that brings poverty, misery, disease and suffering. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 ...and the attempt at betterment brought poverty, misery, disease and suffering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, Peter F said: ...and the attempt at betterment brought poverty, misery, disease and suffering. There was plenty of that to go around at the time in Canada, even among non-natives. Doing nothing for them would have been even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: There was plenty of that to go around at the time in Canada, even among non-natives. Doing nothing for them would have been even worse. The difference was that our culture brought poverty, misery, disease and suffering to natives on purpose. The intent was to screw them into oblivion. I can't say I blame them for wanting their country back. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, OftenWrong said: There was plenty of that to go around at the time in Canada, even among non-natives. Doing nothing for them would have been even worse. If you call splitting up families and forcibly taking their children away doing something for them. It wasn't done for them, it was done to try and make them white and Christian. Edited March 11, 2017 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 hour ago, eyeball said: The difference was that our culture brought poverty, misery, disease and suffering to natives on purpose. The intent was to screw them into oblivion. I can't say I blame them for wanting their country back. What happened to them was a consequence of colonial wars, the same consequences from which we benefit. Think about that next time you're out for dinner at the Ponderosa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, Wilber said: If you call splitting up families and forcibly taking their children away doing something for them. It wasn't done for them, it was done to try and make them white and Christian. They got about the best that could be expected for the time. You are judging it entirely by todays standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: They got about the best that could be expected for the time. You are judging it entirely by todays standards. We're not talking about the 1800s... residential schools, and the abuses suffered, are aalso a modern day issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 11, 2017 Report Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, The_Squid said: We're not talking about the 1800s... residential schools, and the abuses suffered, are aalso a modern day issue. We were talking about how it came to be in the first place. These things no longer happen in Canada today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 4 hours ago, Peter F said: ...and the attempt at betterment brought poverty, misery, disease and suffering. It wasn't an attempt at betterment. It was an attempt at eradicating native culture, and bring about the end of native treaties, and end natives status as a distinct legal entity. They were not trying to help the natives. They were trying to stop natives from being a problem for white people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: They got about the best that could be expected for the time. You are judging it entirely by todays standards. The best that can expected? Of 150+ thousand native students that passed through the system, 40 thousand were raped. More than 6000 died. Native had a better chance of dying while in these schools, than a Canadian soldier had during combat in WW2. The "best that could be expected".... Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, dre said: The best that can expected? Of 150+ thousand native students that passed through the system, 40 thousand were raped. More than 6000 died. Native had a better chance of dying while in these schools, than a Canadian soldier had during combat in WW2. The "best that could be expected".... Wow. Point is a lot more would have died if nothing had been done. Natives in 1800 were already living in complete squalor. Their children were starving. At the time the decision was made to create the schools, natives were described as brutal savages with little to no chance of becoming civilized. Their primitive way of life was not compatible with European culture. It's a pity. However the government and church at the time thought they were doing the right thing. That is why it's the best that can be expected, AT THE TIME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 42 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: However the government and church at the time thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were doing the right thing for themselves. Not for natives. They wanted to absolve themselves of treaty obligations, and get rid of the "indian problem". Duncan Campbell Scott, minister of Indian Affairs at the time said... Quote the Government will in time reach the end of its responsibility as the Indians progress into civilization and finally disappear as a separate and distinct people They knew what they were doing was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, dre said: Duncan Campbell Scott, minister of Indian Affairs at the time said... They knew what they were doing was wrong. They thought they had no other choice. They wanted natives to be able to sustain themselves independently, without government financial support, which in itself is not a bad thing. They had to become westernized law abiding citizens of course. That is what the quote by the Minister refers to. Natives were being decimated by disease and starvation. The government knew that they couldn't live according to their traditional ways, because of the change that colonialism would inevitably bring. It was already game over when the first sailing ships arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 12, 2017 Report Share Posted March 12, 2017 Of course they had a choice and they weren't saving them from disease and starvation. Things like TB were rampant in some residential schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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