hot enough Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) You could say things like that, which are not true. Ot you could look at where US involvement has caused civil wars, look at places where the US has overthrown the leaders, Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan; look at places where the US has been trying for years to overthrow the government, Syria. I think just with this cursory examination, we can see the connection between the refugee problem and the US. As Betsy has astutely pointed out; "Although what you're saying supports Trump's position that indeed, the USA has to be very wary of all people coming from such places. In other words, you're saying his action is justified." Justified, most assuredly, in the sense that if I were to murder one family, I'm not likely to have all the other relatives over for dinner. Edited February 24, 2017 by hot enough grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, betsy said: It's hard to be selective when he issued an open invitation for all! All requirement is that they be fleeing from persecution, terror and war. Gee, if I'm a fugitive for raping and killing young children, and I know I'm gonna get beheaded for it - I'd be fleeing in terror! If I'm being persecuted for my sexual orientation - for loving children - I'm fleeing persecution! Actually I was referring more to our immigration system. I don't think it is selective enough. As for refugees which is a different category I don't have major issue with giving refugees to those who can prove their lives are seriously threatened if they return but not for anyone who wishes to deliberately cross the border illegally and only after we take care of our own people first. The sick, the homeless, the poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, hot enough said: You could say things like that, which are not true. Ot you could look at where US involvement has caused civil wars, look at places where the US has overthrown the leaders, Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan; look at places where the US has been trying for years to overthrow the government, Syria. This is nonsense. The US did not overthrow the leaders of Ukraine. It's involvement with the Libyan upraising came after UN pleas to help put an end to the fighting, and its involvement in Syria, as minor as that is, came about for roughly the same reason. Afghanistan committed an act of war against the US by sheltering thousands of members of Al Quaeda, who attacked the United States. 2 minutes ago, hot enough said: I think just with this cursory examination, we can see the connection between the refugee problem and the US. No, we can see the connection between mass violence around the world, and western countries responding. For example, the US sent troops into Somalia because of years of internal warfare and mass starvation. Does that mean the US was responsible for that warfare and starvation? Hardly. All of which is related more to your political ideological beliefs rather than what I wrote, which is that we cannot possibly bring in huge numbers of people from everywhere in the world where there is war or violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Actually I was referring more to our immigration system. I don't think it is selective enough. As for refugees which is a different category I don't have major issue with giving refugees to those who can prove their lives are seriously threatened if they return but not for anyone who wishes to deliberately cross the border illegally and only after we take care of our own people first. The sick, the homeless, the poor. What happens if those refugees can't be screened and vetted properly? If there's nothing that can collaborate their claim is true? Edited February 24, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Argus said: This is nonsense. The US did not overthrow the leaders of Ukraine. It's involvement with the Libyan upraising came after UN pleas to help put an end to the fighting, and its involvement in Syria, as minor as that is, came about for roughly the same reason. Afghanistan committed an act of war against the US by sheltering thousands of members of Al Quaeda, who attacked the United States. If you would like to start a thread, I would discuss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: immigration is supposed to serve Canada and benefit Canadians NOT the other way round Let`s not confuse immigration policy with refugees, they are completely different issues. We have an immigration policy based on what will benefit the monied interests who pay the economists and other pundits who lobby (and bribe) our elected officials to set it. Our refugee policy however is based on moral and legal obligations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, betsy said: What happens if those refugees can't be screened and vetted properly? If there's nothing that can collaborate their claim is true? Yes, proper vetting and screening is a challenge. We need to balance that with our moral and legal obligations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 52 minutes ago, betsy said: What happens if those refugees can't be screened and vetted properly? If there's nothing that can collaborate their claim is true? Then a judge can decide case by case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Let`s not confuse immigration policy with refugees, they are completely different issues. We have an immigration policy based on what will benefit the monied interests who pay the economists and other pundits who lobby (and bribe) our elected officials to set it. Our refugee policy however is based on moral and legal obligations. Our immigration system needs improvement too as I don't believe we are selective enough and immigrants must be screened out if they are not ALREADY adopted to Canadian values. As for refugees it is NOT our moral or legal obligation to accept those who are ILLEGALLY crossing the border into Canada wishing to jump the line up. Edited February 24, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: As for refugees it is NOT our moral or legal obligation to accept those who are ILLEGALLY crossing the border into Canada wishing to jump the line up. It is our legal obligation. I agree our moral obligation seems like it should be higher to those who line up, but our legal obligation is still there. The moral obligation is much more complex, because if we do not accept them (subject to proper vetting) then we are giving tacit approval to other countries, like those on the front lines, not to accept refugees either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Our immigration system needs improvement too as I don't believe we are selective enough and immigrants must be screened out if they are not ALREADY adopted to Canadian values. As for refugees it is NOT our moral or legal obligation to accept those who are ILLEGALLY crossing the border into Canada wishing to jump the line up. Agreed! Further to that by selective I think it requires point system. In UK for the example the government set a quota for an immigrant to earn an income of atleast £18,000 or £22,000 joint. In essence migration through filtering can add net value to canadian economy. That said there is another school of thoughts that argues attracting highly skilled migrants from other countries will create a 'brain drain syndrome' for those countries losing highly technical and skilled professionals to host countries which will inevitably have an impact on their economy and therefore lead to an influx of further migration...So perhaps instead of encouraging these migrants to come to Canada there needs to be a mechanism to create stability in their own countries to attract these highly skilled workers and regulate the flow of migration to Canada and elsewhere. A win win situation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Then a judge can decide case by case. Oh, my. All the would-be expenses Trudeau has saddled us with. Edited February 24, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ?Impact said: Yes, proper vetting and screening is a challenge. We need to balance that with our moral and legal obligations. What's our moral obligation? First and foremost - our obligation is to the welfare of the citizens in our country. As long as we have First Nations living in such poor conditions, and we've got homeless people - we have no business taking in others (and in the process neglecting our own!) We can't even properly look after Canadian children that are being placed in detention centers, for goodness sake! Quote Hundreds of Canadian children held in immigration detention, report shows Normally Canadian citizens cannot be subject to detention under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. These children became de facto detainees because they were in the care of a parent who was detained and is a foreign national or permanent resident. “It’s a clear violation of international law for these kids not to have their best interests taken into account as a primary consideration,” said Hanna Gros, the report’s author and a senior fellow at the University of Toronto. “It’s quite shocking that Canadian citizens are treated this way.” http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/hundreds-of-canadian-children-held-in-immigration-detention-report-shows/article34117189/ Our moral obligation begins at home! Edited February 24, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, kactus said: Agreed! Further to that by selective I think it requires point system. In UK for the example the government set a quota for an immigrant to earn an income of atleast £18,000 or £22,000 joint. In essence migration through filtering can add net value to canadian economy. So, an uneducated or unemployable refugee wouldn't be allowed in Canada. He made all that dangerous trip only to be refused entry! Great. False hope by empty promise of a grandstanding PM. Way to go! Trudeau should tweet now....and give all the conditions and requirements for entry! He better make the conditions clear! It's the only responsible, and humane thing to do! Edited February 24, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, betsy said: We can't even properly look after Canadian children that are being placed in detention centers, for goodness sake! Yes, that is one of the problems with immigration. Children born here are Canadian, but if their parents are subject to immigration proceedings and being held in detention then what do we do with the children. Canadian citizenship is one of the larger issues that needs to be discussed as well. Anyone born on Canadian soil is considered a Canadian by current law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, betsy said: So, an uneducated or unemployable refugee wouldn't be allowed in Canada. He made all that dangerous trip only to be refused entry! Great. False hope by empty promise of a grandstanding PM. Way to go! Trudeau should tweet now....and give all the conditions and requirements for entry! He better make the conditions clear! It's the only responsible, and humane thing to do! First I was talking about immigration in broad context not necessarily just refugees. Second if your beloved president Trump was so humane he wouldn't order for refusal of entry of those poor refugees that made the dangerous trip to the US of A in the first place only to be turned down.... Edited February 24, 2017 by kactus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 55 minutes ago, kactus said: First I was talking about immigration in broad context not necessarily just refugees. Second if your beloved president Trump was so humane he wouldn't order for refusal of entry of those poor refugees that made the dangerous trip to the US of A in the first place only to be turned down.... Never mind my beloved Trump. People knew what he's going to do a year ago when he was campaigning. We're talking about Trudeau's reckless tweet! What do you think he should do about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, betsy said: Never mind my beloved Trump. People knew what he's going to do a year ago when he was campaigning. We're talking about Trudeau's reckless tweet! What do you think he should do about that? He sure drained yea ol' swamp at the State Dept. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, betsy said: Oh, my. All the would-be expenses Trudeau has saddled us with. $50,000 in legal costs for every single failed case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, ?Impact said: Yes, that is one of the problems with immigration. Children born here are Canadian, but if their parents are subject to immigration proceedings and being held in detention then what do we do with the children. Canadian citizenship is one of the larger issues that needs to be discussed as well. Anyone born on Canadian soil is considered a Canadian by current law. We should change that law. It's a holdover from a distant era. European countries no longer grant citizenship just because you are born there, if your parents aren't citizens. There are, in fact, only 30 countries in the world which do this, out of, I believe 180. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2017 Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 3 hours ago, betsy said: Never mind my beloved Trump. People knew what he's going to do a year ago when he was campaigning. We're talking about Trudeau's reckless tweet! What do you think he should do about that? Trudeau's reckless tweet as you like to call is one of many responses to Trumps constant bickering on tweeter at 3:00am. Atleast Trudeau has the guts to say it like it is. He is not like an arrogant reckless president that Trupm has proved to be one week in the office. You gotta admit some of these americans like Trump and his supporters behave like a damn a$$ holes that are bad losers to admit when they are wrong and have tge audacity to blame the Canadian prime minister with their own wrong doings. You wanna know the solution? The execution of that EO by Trump was a disaster and he knows it. It's the mess he created and no one is to blame. If he wants to behave like a human being then he should get off his high horses with that arrogant look and start making constructive decisions to allow those refugees back in US... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 Just now, kactus said: Trudeau's reckless tweet as you like to call is one of many responses to Trumps constant bickering on tweeter at 3:00am. Atleast Trudeau has the guts to say it like it is. He is not like an arrogant reckless president that Trupm has proved to be one week in the office. You gotta admit some of these americans like Trump and his supporters behave like a damn a$$ holes that are bad losers to admit when they are wrong and have tge audacity to blame the Canadian prime minister with their own wrong doings. You wanna know the solution? The execution of that EO by Trump was a disaster and he knows it. It's the mess he created and no one is to blame. If he wants to behave like a human being then he should get off his high horses with that arrogant look and start making constructive decisions to allow those refugees back in US... Well, Trudeau better get a grip and stop copy-catting! He should just stick to his selfies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2017 Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Argus said: We should change that law. It's a holdover from a distant era. European countries no longer grant citizenship just because you are born there, if your parents aren't citizens. There are, in fact, only 30 countries in the world which do this, out of, I believe 180. Well, UK does grant citizenship to people born and that's technically in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 25, 2017 Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, kactus said: ....You wanna know the solution? The execution of that EO by Trump was a disaster and he knows it. It's the mess he created and no one is to blame. If he wants to behave like a human being then he should get off his high horses with that arrogant look and start making constructive decisions to allow those refugees back in US... No way....let the illegals go to Canada where they are welcomed by Trudeau (but not all Canadians). Then President Trump can move on to the deportation of all the Canadian overstays in the U.S. Deport all illegals...now ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 25, 2017 Report Share Posted February 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: No way....let the illegals go to Canada where they are welcomed by Trudeau (but not all Canadians). Then President Trump can move on to the deportation of all the Canadian overstays in the U.S. Deport all illegals...now ! Well according to Betsy those poor refugees have made those dangerous trips to get to the US of A risking their lives. How inhumane can the americans be these days? Hmmmmm..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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