Free Speech or Hate Speech?

[dialamah]

A group calling themselves Never Again Canada held a free speech rally in response to Motion M-103.   The rally was held outside Masjid Mosque in Toronto; protesters carried banners that said things like "Muslims are terrorists", "Ban Islam", "Islam is Hate".  The same kind of messages were repeated through a loudspeaker, and protestors attempted to prevent people from entering the Mosque.   Toronto police are considering whether this rally was hate speech or free speech.  Story here and here .

So, what do you think?  Should the protesters be charged with hate speech or were they well within their rights to protest in the manner they did?

[bush_cheney2004]

Well within their Charter rights.   Protests are meant to be "inconvenient".   See "Black Lives Matter".

As long as no direct threats were uttered, the protest is legal freedom of expression.

Edited February 19, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[?Impact]

It certainly should be investigated, it does seem to cross the line. Trying to intimidate people who are going about their daily lives is a criminal act.

[dialamah]

20 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

It certainly should be investigated, it does seem to cross the line. Trying to intimidate people who are going about their daily lives is a criminal act.

 

I guess the question is whether screaming insults and blocking the way of individuals is considered threatening? 

[Goddess]

I support the right to protest. 

I don't think think was a very well-planned protest, however. Why pick a random mosque to protest Islam in general? 

I think some of the signage crossed the line into hate speech.

I don't agree with screaming insults or impeding people. (I also don't agree with Muslims impeding when they pour into the streets and block traffic to pray.)

[bush_cheney2004]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I guess the question is whether screaming insults and blocking the way of individuals is considered threatening? 

 

When First Nations block highways and rail lines it is considered "mischief", not threatening.

Police will close roads until the protest is over.

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I support the right to protest. 

I don't think think was a very well-planned protest, however. Why pick a random mosque to protest Islam in general? 

I think some of the signage crossed the line into hate speech.

I don't agree with screaming insults or impeding people. (I also don't agree with Muslims impeding when they pour into the streets and block traffic to pray.)

 

 

It wasn't actually a random Mosque; the group's FB page identifies it as a place of anti-Jewish teachings.  The group's purpose is to protect Jews from people who would harm them.   They posted a prayer which they say comes from the Mosque, in which the supplicant asks God to protect them from their enemies, and to give them victory. To me, it doesn't look a lot different from prayers anywhere but the group has taken it to mean specifically Jewish people I guess.   

But yeah, I agree - they have the right to protest but they went pretty far.  I wouldn't want them charged, however, because that would simply make them believe they were the victims of Muslims and that Canada was in dire peril of becoming a Sharia state next month. 

I  think the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by dialamah

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

....I  think the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.
 

 

But never tell the protesters that they have the right to protest in a lawful manner ?    Never remind everybody of their Charter Rights ?

Or does that only apply for issues that are "socially acceptable" by those with a political agenda ?

[Altai]

Free speech is someone's right to explain herself/himself. It contains logic.

Hate speech does not contain logic. Its just a previous phase of a physical attack.



Free Speech:   I dont like xxxxx because of ............

Hate Speech:   F..ck xxxxxx, I hate xxxx, we should kill xxxx, evil xxxxx, xxxx are perverts, xxxxx are disgusting.



Free speech is not something unlimited. Someone's free speech rights ends when s/he start to threaten public peace under the pretext of free speech. 





 

[Guest]

None of the above.  They have every right to protest, they have no right to prevent people from entering the mosque.

As I said yesterday, even as an ex British Soldier, I supported the right of Muslims to protest at the site of homecoming soldiers in the UK.  (think of Muslims holding signs saying "Murderers" and yelling "baby killer" from an overpass on the 401 "Highway of Heroes" as a convoy passed underneath.

As a close relative of a gay person I support the right of the WBC to attend a funeral with "God hates fags" on a banner.

 

You are 100% correct, in my opinion, when you say

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

the response of the community to offer support to the Mosque and to make it clear to the protesters that their beliefs are not shared by the majority of people, and that their actions are socially unacceptable and unwelcome is the most effective counter to this kind of hate.

 

Argument and debate is always better than censorship.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Argument and debate is always better than censorship.

Do you think people who are standing on an overpass and yelling "Baby Killer" and "Murderer" or in a street screaming "Terrorists" "Ban Islam" are open to debate and argument?  

[DogOnPorch]

The Quran says that the Infidel is not free to insult the Prophet nor Muslims. The Infidel is cursed by Allah in this lifetime and the hereafter. Those who insult the Prophet or Muslims should be slaughtered and their property seized.

Sounds fun.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you think people who are standing on an overpass and yelling "Baby Killer" and "Murderer" or in a street screaming "Terrorists" "Ban Islam" are open to debate and argument?  

Those who are, are, those who are not should be ignored.  How were you planning to "make it clear to the protestors, etc.?

[dialamah]

18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Those who are, are, those who are not should be ignored.  How were you planning to "make it clear to the protestors, etc.?

I think the people who stand with signs that have messages of acceptance and tolerance counterbalance the messages of hate and intolerance for both the targets of hate messages and the people who are sending those messages.   Perhaps you include that as 'debate and argument?    

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think the people who stand with signs that have messages of acceptance and tolerance counterbalance the messages of hate and intolerance for both the targets of hate messages and the people who are sending those messages.   Perhaps you include that as 'debate and argument?    

Sure.  Just turning your back on them and walking away would be included too. 

Sorry I didn't write a thesis.  I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition...

I should point out that that's a joke...

Edited February 19, 2017 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Sure.  Just turning your back on them and walking away would be included too. 

Sorry I didn't write a thesis.  I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition...

I should point out that that's a joke...

 

 

Because you are terse, I find you easy to misunderstand and have done so in the past. I don't like misunderstanding people, so yeah - I am trying to ask questions instead of assume.   When words like 'debate and argue' are used, that to me means actual talking back and forth.   People holding signs on seem more like identifying which side of the polar opposite you take with no way to meet.

I did get the joke.  I'm even smiling over here where you can't see me.  

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by dialamah

[betsy]

I couldn't vote since I don't know what are they saying in the protest!  It depends on what's being said!

[-1=e^ipi]

Maybe the crossed the line. But I have not seen any evidence that they have done so.

[betsy]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

A group calling themselves Never Again Canada held a free speech rally in response to Motion M-103.   The rally was held outside Masjid Mosque in Toronto; protesters carried banners that said things like "Muslims are terrorists", "Ban Islam", "Islam is Hate".  The same kind of messages were repeated through a loudspeaker, and protestors attempted to prevent people from entering the Mosque.   Toronto police are considering whether this rally was hate speech or free speech.  Story here and here .

So, what do you think?  Should the protesters be charged with hate speech or were they well within their rights to protest in the manner they did?

 

Those are practically the same things being said by Muslims against Bush, and America!  They even burn the flag or the effigy of Bush!

 

There was a rally by Muslims in Canada that called for the killing of Jews!

 

 

Quote

 

The Anti-Semitic Al-Quds Rally Attracts Thousands of Muslims in Toronto

The 2016 edition of Canada’s largest anti-Semitic fest, the Al-Quds Day, took place in Toronto last Saturday. Named after the Arab word for Jerusalem (Al-Quds), the event has a simple and straightforward message: Jerusalem must be conquered by Muslims to “liberate” the Al-Aqsa mosque on Temple Mount and in the process the whole State of Israel should be wiped out.

 

http://www.blogwrath.com/canada-anti-semitism/the-anti-semitic-al-quds-rally-attracts-thousands-of-muslims-in-toronto/7779/

 

Would you call that free speech, or hate speech?

Edited February 19, 2017 by betsy

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

Those are practically the same things being said by Muslims against Bush, and America!  They even burn the flag or the effigy of Bush!

There was a rally by Muslims in Canada that called for the killing of Jews!

Would you call that free speech, or hate speech?

 

I am unaware of the issue of Muslims holding rallies in the States, burning flags or effigies and talking against Bush.   Did that happen in the States or Canada?   I'm also unaware of the rally that you say happened in Canada and since you lack a certain credibility with me, I would ask for sources to read what actually happened in both instances, and I'll get back to you then.   Thanks.

[betsy]

Just now, dialamah said:

I am unaware of the issue of Muslims holding rallies in the States, burning flags or effigies and talking against Bush.   Did that happen in the States or Canada?   I'm also unaware of the rally that you say happened in Canada and since you lack a certain credibility with me, I would ask for sources to read what actually happened in both instances, and I'll get back to you then.   Thanks.

The protests in Muslim countries.  But what's the difference?  The message is the same, right?

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, betsy said:

I couldn't vote since I don't know what are they saying in the protest!  It depends on what's being said!

You could have read the links I provided and checked out the group's FB page.   But if you can't make up your mind unless you are actually there, that's ok too.   

[betsy]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You could have read the links I provided and checked out the group's FB page.   But if you can't make up your mind unless you are actually there, that's ok too.   

It's okay.  I read your OP.  That's why I'm saying those same protests messages have been spoken by Muslims as well.

 

So why would they be any different? In fact, Al Quds have even gone as far as calling for Israel to be wiped out.  That's worse!

 

Why are Al Quds allowed to speak freely of hate and killings of Jews in Canada.  That's what I want to know!

 

Would you call that hate speech by Al Quds?  Or, free speech?

Edited February 19, 2017 by betsy

[dialamah]

Just now, betsy said:

The protests in Muslim countries.  But what's the difference?  The message is the same, right?

My intent here is to discuss what Canadians think of this kind of behavior in Canada.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

It's okay.  I read your OP.  That's why I'm saying those same protests messages have been spoken by Muslims as well.

 

So why would they be any different? In fact, Al Quds have even gone as far as calling for Israel to be wiped out.  That's worse!

 

The topic is about an event in Canada, carried out by Canadians.