UN Resolution 2334 to block Israeli settlements.

[Hudson Jones]

15 hours ago, TimG said:

So? The intent of the blockade it is to limit goods which can be used to be turned into weapons.

I can't quite tell if you have limited knowledge on this issue or you are purposely echoing the false narrative. Some of the goods that were not allowed into Gaza I have listed below - Tell me again if limitation of goods were due to stopping Hamas from making weapons OR so that Israel could punish and break a group of people:

1.  sage    2.  cardamom   3. cumin   4. coriander   5. ginger   6. jam   7. halva   8. vinegar   9. nutmeg   10. chocolate   11. fruit preserves   12. seeds and nuts   13. biscuits and sweets 14.   potato chips   15. gas for soft drinks   16. dried fruit   17. fresh meat   18. plaster   19. tar   20. wood for construction 21. cement   22. iron   23. glucose   24. industrial salt   25. plastic/glass/metal containers   26. industrial margarine   27. tarpaulin sheets for huts   28. fabric (for clothing)   29. flavor and smell enhancers   30. fishing rods   31. various fishing nets   32. buoys   33. ropes for fishing   34. nylon nets for greenhouses   35. hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries   36. spare parts for tractors   37. dairies for cowsheds   38. irrigation pipe systems   39. ropes to tie greenhouses   40. planters for saplings   41. heaters for chicken farms   42. musical instruments   43. size A4 paper   44. writing implements   45. notebooks   46. newspapers   47. toys   48. razors   49. sewing machines and spare parts   50. heaters   51. horses   52. donkeys   53. goats   54. cattle   55. chicks

Source

Quote

More importantly, Egypt also enforces these restrictions at its border. Perhaps because it too realizes that Hamas is group that foments violence and weapons need to be kept out of its hands. If Egypt lifted its blockade the efforts by Israel would be irrelevant. So why do the anti-Israel chattering classes focus only on Israel? Perhaps it is because their dislike of Israel has nothing to do with the actions Israel takes to protect itself from those that would do it harm.

Egypt enforced the restrictions because of the massive amount of money it receives from the U.S. If they don't cooperate with U.S.' demands, those millions would be gone.

We just saw this happen last week, when Trump contacted Al-Sisi (Egypt's president) and on behalf of Israel, told him not to bring forward the anti-settlement resolution. Al-Sisi bowed to his sugar daddy.

So in conclusion, repeating the narrative, that Israel removed a few thousand people from Gaza and then the response was rockets is false and it's missing some important information. It cannot be used as justification for Israel not to follow international law and continue to steal more Palestinian land.

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

Hudson Jones it never ceases to amaze me how you start one topic then switch to a totally different topic.

In regards to the supposed embrago you are claiming exists it has nothing to do with the issue of settlements.

But hey why stay on topic right?

More to the point, the list you present is an utter and total lie.

Provide the sources for it. Provide the proof these goods were blocked and why, You have many times come on this forum

and made misrepresentations about the embargo, Enough is enough with your absolute falsehood. Provide the proof for your claims

and where you got your list from.

More to the point since it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread start another thread.

[TimG]

15 minutes ago, Rue said:

Provide the sources for it. Provide the proof these goods were blocked and why, You have many times come on this forum

As far as I can tell he is not wrong. Until 2010 the list of prohibited goods was pretty extensive: 
http://www.haaretz.com/gazans-get-halva-but-not-cookies-1.295228

The current list more plausibly addresses the stated objective but it is mystery why it was so strict in the first place. 

Of course, these news reports from Haaretz could be false or misleading. I would be inclined to believe there is more to the story because only an insane person would have come up with a list that banned things which are obviously food products.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by TimG

[Rue]

On 12/26/2016 at 0:05 PM, Canadianjim said:

You are free to deny this

 

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

Why would he deny someone's subjective opinion? He disagrees with it. Do you understand the difference? Clearly not.

You also don't understand the difference between soomeone's subjective opinion and actual fact.

 You have reproduced someone's subjective opinion that in fact does not prove what you claim. .

You continue to engage in the misrepresentation that the PA and Hamas recognize Israel as a Jewish state when they both

as wel as the Arab League have stated they will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

You can repeat your falsehood until doomsday but the actual words of the Arab League, Hamas and PA are public domain as is their refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4114446,00.html

http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-palestinians-will-never-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state/

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Abbas-reaffirms-refusal-to-recognize-Israel-as-a-Jewish-state-337854

https://www.rt.com/news/arab-league-israel-state-834/

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/interview-abu-marzouk-hamas-israel-fatah-reconciliation.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0309/Arab-League-refuses-to-recognize-Israel-as-Jewish-state

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/hamas-obama-we-wont-recognize-israel

Here is the bottom line. 

Until;

1. the Arab League recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state

2. the PA recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state

3. Hamas, Hezbollah , Al Quaeda, ISIL-Daesh recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state

4. the Muslim extremist terrorist organizations a;; agree to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state

5. all of the above agree to disarm and stop attacking Israel

6, denounce their charters calling on a Muslim state in Israel

there will be no legitimate or serious peace talks.

Never again will Israel sit with the PA and be lied to.

Israel came to the peace table and signed a treaty offering to hand back 90% of the West Bank-in return Arafat got cauht on South African radio which he

was thought was off air stating in a bragging tone that he lied and never had any intention of making peace with Israel and all he was doing was stalling for ti me until the day he could get enough arms to get back Israel once and for all.

Mr. Abbas has stood up in his assembly and stated the only thing the PA will agree to is a state in Israel if it a Muslim sharia law state and the PA has the right to support war and terror to achieve this goal and described the civilian knife attacks against Israelis as justifiable.

Hamas has repeatedly stated it will not stop until Israel is recaptured and turned into a Sharia Law state.

John Kerry and Obama said Israel should withdraw to 1967 borders not withstanding the Arab League does not recognize them or the state of Israel

and not withstanding the PA and Hamas and Hezbollah and 300 other terror cells are in a declared state of war against Israel and as we speak attack it.

Kerry and Obama when asked why Israel would withdraw to a border that would enable terrorists to be literally inches from vulnerable civilians they are in a war with stated Israel should take a chance.

Israel withdrew from Gaza when Hamas and the PA said if they would withdraw there would be peace. The moment they withdrew, the very moment, Hamas began attacking it with missiles and incoming terrorists digging tunnels. As we speak Hamas is taking funds from the UN and help agencies supposedly going to feed Palestinians in Gaza and using this money to build new tunnels into Israel.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon after Hezbollah stated it was only armed to defend Lebanon from Israel and once Israel left it would disarm. Israel left, Hezbollah not only refused to disarm but engaged in a coups against Lebanon killing thousands of Sunnis and Christians and using its new border against Israel sent in terrorists who went to a house in Israel on the border. Its mother and daughter hid in a tiny hiding space and the mother suffocated her baby to death so it would not cry and give them away,

The father and his young boy in that house were taken to a beach and repeatedly sodimized, defecated on, urinated on then chopped up and mutilated with their genitals stuffed in their mouths.

The leader of this attack was hailed in Lebanon as a hero.

You really think Israel faced with threats on all its borders, a daily, moment by moment continual war to exist surrounded by extremist Muslim terrorists gives a damn what you think? You pretend Hamas recognizes Israel. You pretend the PA does You pretend Abbas the leader of the PA recognizes Israel when this man stood up in his assembly and gave a standing ovation to cheers of death to Israel.

Rogue nation says Moonlight Graham. Lol. Rogue nation? Yah that's right. Israel isn't a model nation like Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Bahrain, Yemen,Saudi Arabia, Sudan.

Not Israel. Oh hell Israel is a rogue nation because it won't pull back to undefensible borders and expose its people to death,

What crap. What a double standard of crap.

The West Bank has never been part of any nation yet its defined as one when its very leaders will never recognize Israel and are at war with Israel and Israel is expected to say to its enemy, hey man, go ahead, attack we are going to let you come right up in our face now to kill us.

Let's be clear. The world does not give a damn about Israel and never has. It has no oil.

when Jewish refugees found themselves with nothing after WW2 the UN refused to help Jews. It was in fact Elenor Roosevelgt on her own who took on the entire UN and the US to rescue Jews and get them to Palestine. The Nazis fled to Syria, Egypt and Iraq and ran their governments and then were joined by the French and British run colonies in the Arab world try wipe out the Jews who fled to Palestine to escape the very colonialists who teamed up with the Arabs to kill off the Jews in Palestine.

To this day the false script is those Jews came as colonialists. They were in fact victims of the very colonies Arab nations turned to for help in slaughtering Jews.

In spite of this help the Arab League of nations failed. They attacked, the UN turned its back on Jews ignoring its promise to create a Jewish state.

The UN allowed its predecessor Britain to have illegally violated the League Mandate and take 80% of the land earmarked for an Israeli state and turn it into a Muslim and Jewish free Palestinian state which still exists and is called Jordan which offered all Palestinians as long as they were not Jews citizenship.

It was only in 1967 when the Egyptian, Yasir Arafat a drug trader running heroin and hash hish to France failed to kill King Hussein of Jordan and run it, decided he would refer to his followers as Palestinians, Until then he ridiculed the word saying there was no such thing.

Now comes the fiction that the West Bank was always Palestine. The word is a Greek word bstardized into a rough Arabic translation and it comes from a reference to the Phillistines and not a nation but a geographic area. There never was a Palestinian nation, government or people, ever. They were invented in 1967.

The West Bank was never part of any nation. At one point it was part of two nations called Judea and Somaria but in today's narrative Judea and Somaria and Jews never existed-they just magically invaded after WW2.  The fact that Jews predate any Muslim or Christian and have been living in the ME longer than Muslims or Arabs is of course omitted in the narrative.

No Jew has the right to land on the West Bank not even the ones who have been living there since Biblical days

Go on ask Moonlight Graham about the Jews of Hebron who don't recognize Israel as a state. According to Mr Abbas all 200,000 of them will be forcefully deported.

As for the demography of Palestinians ask Moonlight Graham who they are. Will he tell you the vast majority of them are descended from Muslims who moved into the West Bank and in fact illegally took the land away from Palestinian Muslims and they now pose as Palestinians. Speaking about rogue nations will Mr, Graham remind you that Arafat blew up the land titles office on the West Bank because he know the majority of land owners on the West Bank were non Palestinian Muslims who dispossessed the land from Palestinians and he did not want that coming out and destroying his Palestinian myth?

Now you want to talk about settlements? Sure all you arm chair experts who have never lived on the West Bank or in Israel you are all experts.

You know. You know the history.

Crap. 

If in a world of reasonability Muslims were not in a religious war against Israel to remove it, asthey are now, you bet Israel could trade land for peace. They did it with Egyptians. It requires a peace partner. Who? Abbas? Hamas? Hezbollah? Who?

Experts all of you get back to me when you can find one Palestinian leader who can guarantee if Israel were to remove their settlers this would be done in exchange for peace and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish nation. Go on find one.

Go one experts provide me on name. One name.

Only in this world would Jews be expected to commit suicide and expose themselves to terrorists and be called a rogue nation because they won't allow their enemy closer proximity to them. Right.

Experts. You want to lecture Israel and hold it to a standard of suicide dream on.

 

 

 

[Rue]

51 minutes ago, TimG said:

As far as I can tell he is not wrong. Until 2010 the list of prohibited goods was pretty extensive: 
http://www.haaretz.com/gazans-get-halva-but-not-cookies-1.295228

The current list more plausibly addresses the stated objective but it is mystery why it was so strict in the first place. 

Of course, these news reports from Haaretz could be false or misleading. I would be inclined to believe there is more to the story because only an insane person would have come up with a list that banned things which are obviously food products.

 

I will respond but how about you read the article. It does not prove what you state.

[Rue]

The tactic of repeating a lie over and over to make it true actually works on forums where people to do not read earlier forum posts and threads.

The tactic of repeating Israel has an embargo that bans all kinds of crap to punish Palestinians has been repeated many times on this forum.

To start with many of these alleged lists are Egyptian lists the Egyptians not Israelis banned because of smuggling of stolen goods but its passed off as happening on the Israeli side.

Next the embargo applied to ships coming in off the sea is different from goods coming in by land.

Next many products refused entry into Gaza are done on the command of Hamas not Israel who do not want anything they think is Jewish or Israeli made or indirectly made.

The list Hudson Jones has comes from this source:

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Now may I refer you to the caution that goes with the list and ask you to please read it:

"The following list is approximate and partial, and it changes from time to time. It is based on information from Palestinian traders and businesspersons, international organizations, and the Palestinian Coordination Committee, all of whom "deduce" what is permitted and what is banned based on their experience requesting permission to bring goods into Gaza and the answers they receive from the Israeli authorities (approved or denied). It is not possible to verify this list with the Israeli authorities because they refuse to disclose information regarding the restrictions on transferring goods into Gaza. It should be noted that Israel permits some of the "prohibited" items into Gaza (for example: paper, biscuits, and chocolate), on the condition that they are for the use of international organizations, while requests from private merchants to purchase them are denied. "

The fact is there is NO and has never been a FIXED list. That is a lie an utter lie,.

You also have to trace the source of who tells you what is on the list to understand what their political agenda is.

The fact is all food is now getting into Gaza. There can be delay. This is caused by lack of people on the Israeli side of the border to check all the goods.

Why are they being screened, because Gaza's Hamas is at war with Israel that is why-everything has to be checked for weapons which can come in any shape or form.

I also say this.

If Hamas gave a damn about its peoople and their hunger, it has the choice to stop fighting Israel and opening its borders and caling for peace. It will not and it delibertaely holds its citizens hostage. Instead of pointing the finger at Israel point it at Hamas.

When Hamas was run by Muslims who did not agree in engaging in war and terror Israel funded charities and non profit organizations that worked with Hamas.

Israel built roads, green houses, markets and regularly traded with Gaza farmers for produce. Gaza citizens went in to Israel and worked.

When Hamas took over it blew up the greenhouses, market places, roads. Any farmer who sold produce to Israel had his farm burned and was killed.

Hundreds of Gaza Palestinians had rubber tires put around their neck and were burned to death or mutilated in public-their crime, working with Israelis or in Israel.

Gaza citizens today are completely dependent on outside aid because Hamas will not allow any economy other than war against Israel.

Yes Gaza citizens have what is called food insecurity-they lack a full range of foods. They worry about food supplies but they are not starving as are Muslims in Syria.

Its not a wonderful thing it humilates but it is a direct consequence of a society held captive by Hamas.

Instead of not examining what Hamas is doing in its own Gaza territory look.

As well when you read these lists can you please stop and consider who wrote them up and why.

Now have Mr. Jones deny where he got the list from and why he did not point out the above caution as to the list.

This is the kind of propaganda I despise. He uses the suffering of Gaza citizens to change the topic to villianize Israel.

It hijacks meaningful discussion about peace and once again turns such threads into a b,s. pretext to piss on Israel and it has nothing to do with

the interests of Palestinians and everything to do with using them to advance propaganada.

I volunteered bring food and medical supplies in to Palestinians on the West Bank years ago as part of an IDF humanitarian project.

Things have changed. In many respects they have gotten worse because of sob's exploiting the conflict and cause fear between Palestinians and Israelis  for their own damn selfish agendas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TimG]

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

To start with many of these alleged lists are Egyptian lists the Egyptians not Israelis banned because of smuggling of stolen goods but its passed off as happening on the Israeli side.

Next the embargo applied to ships coming in off the sea is different from goods coming in by land.

Next many products refused entry into Gaza are done on the command of Hamas not Israel who do not want anything they think is Jewish or Israeli made or indirectly made.

As I suspected. There is more to the story. But I could not find it with web searches. The only basis I had to be suspicious was the general absurdity of the list. 

[Canadianjim]

There will never be a 2 state solution with Netanayu. He  admitted it the last israeli election. Of course he spoke out of both sides of his mouth and tried to walk it back. He says what he needs to say to further his goals. Truth be damned.

All this nonsense about what the Palestinians should do is just noise. Israeli is playing the long game. They simply let  this atrocity continue for decades , terrorize the Palestinians to make them eventually leave the area. Continue with their settlement building on Palestinian land  confirming of course  they have no interest in a 2 state solution. 

Please stop the propaganda noise.... It's offensive to thinking people.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Canadianjim

[DogOnPorch]

It's the Arabs who let this go-on for decades.

Nobody else.

What's the next Arab peace plan? Another attack?

[Canadianjim]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

It's the Arabs who let this go-on for decades.

Nobody else.

What's the next Arab peace plan? Another attack?

The Palestinians originally refused the partition plan because they think exactly the  same way you do.

They did not believe the UN had the  authority to divide up their land.  The exact same belief that you have  regarding your land,.

 

[eyeball]

Yes but we don't expect others to do unto us as we do unto them - the only thing that pisses us off even more is when they do act like us.

The nerve of our victims.

[TimG]

2 hours ago, Canadianjim said:

They did not believe the UN had the  authority to divide up their land.  The exact same belief that you have  regarding your land,.

"Their land" is a fiction created for political purposes. Palestinians are just Arabs that have always been part of larger Arab states. 

[DogOnPorch]

3 hours ago, Canadianjim said:

The Palestinians originally refused the partition plan because they think exactly the  same way you do.

They did not believe the UN had the  authority to divide up their land.  The exact same belief that you have  regarding your land,.

 

"Palestinians" as we know them were created at the 1967 Khartoum Conference by the Arab states present at the meeting. This was the conference of the "Three Noes"...

No Peace With Israel. No Negotiations with Israel. No Recognition of Israel. (Still followed by Syria and the PLO/Hamas)

Yasser Arafat was Egyptian.

Before Arafat, his Nazi Uncle Hajj Amin ran the show...but he believed in Pan-Arabism like Nasser...ie: One Big Arab State...the Caliphate or what-have-you. With him in charge, of course.

[Canadianjim]

25 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

"Palestinians" as we know them were created at the 1967 Khartoum Conference by the Arab states present at the meeting. This was the conference of the "Three Noes"...

No Peace With Israel. No Negotiations with Israel. No Recognition of Israel. (Still followed by Syria and the PLO/Hamas)

Yasser Arafat was Egyptian.

Before Arafat, his Nazi Uncle Hajj Amin ran the show...but he believed in Pan-Arabism like Nasser...ie: One Big Arab State...the Caliphate or what-have-you. With him in charge, of course.

The PLO today recognizes Israel. However many Israeli groups do not recognize Palestine.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Canadianjim said:

The PLO today recognizes Israel. However many Israeli groups do not recognize Palestine.

No it doesn't.

[Canadianjim]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

No it doesn't.

Yea it does which is why America took them off the terrorist list.

Facts say you are wrong.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

[eyeball]

Yes but DOP's opinions trump just about everyone else's facts so....he accepts your surrender.

[DogOnPorch]

Uh...no. The PLO is a terrorist organization that hates all Jews. Their end-game is the destruction of the Jewish State.

But, I do recognize that you're a Jihad/Hamas/PLO supporter rather than an Israel supporter like myself. So you are expected to give the usual BS lines on demand.

 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes but DOP's opinions trump just about everyone else's facts so....he accepts your surrender.

 

You're free to support the PLO. I won't stop you.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Uh...no. The PLO is a terrorist organization that hates all Jews. Their end-game is the destruction of the Jewish State.

 

Yep....PLO always has been and remains a terrorist organization.   PLO has the unwavering goal of destroying Israel.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're free to support the PLO. I won't stop you.

Your wish is my command.

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yep....PLO always has been and remains a terrorist organization.   PLO has the unwavering goal of destroying Israel.

Well, I can't say I blame them for feeling that way.

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Your wish is my command.

Murderers love company.

[Omni]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Murderers love company.

I guess that's why they are all piled into the same narrow piece of land?

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Omni said:

I guess that's why they are all piled into the same narrow piece of land?

You're free to support Hamas. I won't stop you. I'll support Israel.