Blasphemy

[msj]

Just now, Rue said:

Absolutely false. 

 

So you are saying we do not have a blasphemy law on the books? 

I think we do. 

[DogOnPorch]

Canada's population will be about 100 million by 2100.

Crusty old Xristian laws that nobody uses are going to be the least of the issues.

[msj]

Lets hope so. 

But in America they are only 4 or so Governorships away from amending the constituion so the white folks of Canada can also be scared into changing our Charter. 

It's a thin line between secularism and religionism. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by msj

[Rue]

22 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Muslims lie to infidels: perfectly acceptable.

Not quite true. It may be the extremist and terrorist Muslims believe this but many mainstream Muslims believe a lie is a lie no matter who its told to and most scholars Muslim or not would tell you the interpretation you can lie to a non Muslim is not true. Its the same kind of crap as people making false quotes about the Talmud.

There are passages in the Koran that say a lie is a lie no matter who its told to. I defer to Muslims on t hat. I think in fairness, Judaism, Cjhristianity and Islam hve all been accused of the above by those who have a partisan bias against the religions.

All 3 have passages that can be exploited by humans to justify savagery, terrorism, lying, etc. Its all in how you want to read and interpret the passages. I can find as many in the Koran against the very thing certain Muslim extremists claim the Koran says.

The Koran, the Bible, any holy book can be used as a weapon of evil or a source for positive good. It depends on the humans who hold the book in their hands and how they choose to use it.

I don't have much patience for extremist Islam or people who try apologize for it by making absurd arguments Christianity or Judaism have the same laws in force as in Sharia law states today. Its crap. Its diaheria. But its also crap to suggest all Muslims feel they can lie to non Muslims. That's not fair.

I don't speak for all Muslims but the Ismaili Muslims, the Amidyah Muslims I know think a lie is a lie. Likewise I do know Sunnis and Shiites who would say a lie is a lie. I have sat with them in conferences where this argument is raised and they make eloquent explanations how that belief which has been misappropriated by extremist terrorists just as those terrorists have expropriated the meaning of holy war, are in fact "blasphemous" if I may use the word.

Bottom line, show me a human with a holy book, and I show him the door until he puts he book down.

People are much better behaved when you take these friggin books out of their hand, and give them an axe and say, here instead of hacking some disbeliever to death chop some wood, its cold.

Its how things are done in Canada.

You want holy war, go out on an ice flow and get into a fist fight with a Polar Bear for phack's sake.

 

 

[Rue]

31 minutes ago, msj said:

So you are saying we do not have a blasphemy law on the books? 

I think we do. 

No I said its on the books. I also said its no longer enforceable or applicable because of the Charter of Right. What I am saying MSJ is there are in fact hundreds of statutes with outmoded unenforceable laws and regulations and eventually they get removed but not always as quickly as you think they should be because quite frankly they are not an issue and its a housekeeping exercise.

In fact that section you state is most certainly on the books but it was scheduled to be subject to removal and will be when they get around to amending the Criminal Code which is a non stop exercise, cumbersome, full of ridiculous bureaucratic procedures and steps to be followed before you can do that.

It was never used in Canada. It is a vestige of old Christian laws from Britain.

It was never used with native peoples or new Canadians. We discriminated in other ways.

I think for example you know the story of forcing thousands of native children into orphanages. There was a very real belief they were savages in need of salvation and it was thought to make them Canadian they had to be modernized including turned Christian. Its a mix of racism, elitism. religious bigotry, call it what you want but its a part of our history we now reject and teach was wrong.

The Charter of Rights and the freedom of religion it incorporates would not allow any Christian to arrest someone for simply saying they don't believe God exists or Jesus is the Messiah or the Pope is not infallible.

If I went to a Church and urinated on it or vandalized it or spat on or throw rocks at Christians I would be arrested not for blasphemy but for assault and bettery, public nuisance, etc. I could be arrested as well for hate crimes.

So lets drop this phony baloney analogy. The blasphemy laws upheld in Sharia law nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, the UAE, Kuwait, Iraq,  are very real. In Iran and Saudi Arabia they have religious enforcers not that different than what goes in in the wonderul world of Daesh-Isil-Isis.

Its why progressive Muslims come to Canada to get away from that crap.

Its why and do not get me wrong I can't stand Islam used that way, but for me its not the religion itself, but the people using the religion that way I can't stand.

I don't have time for any extremist of any friggin religion but when we discuss these issues let's get he analogies clear. All the people I am challenging on this form know I agree with them that  any religious extremism is a crock and we can get smug if we think we are better than anyone else simply because they are Muslim and we are not. I get that-its just not being expressed in a manner that makes logical sense.

You want to argue there are stupid laws on the books MSJ you are damn right. They get changed. Hopefully one day they will be changed in Muslim nations as they have been in the West, Hopefully Islam evolves i n Sharia law nations past what it is today like Christianity has in Europe. Sure there is a lot of crap in Europe in terms of racism, whatever. No one is saying Western society is perfect but let's be real we've moved past burning witches and putting people on the racks. Let's be fair to Christians as well as Muslims  when we talk about such stupidity that's all I am saying.

[DogOnPorch]

Lying to the unbeliever:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

Any exceptions are listed.

Perfectly acceptable: lying in this situation does not have the same stigma as it does in Western Civilization.

[Altai]

1 hour ago, msj said:

Right, Islam demands freedom of religion so long as you believe in Islam. 

But even mention atheism and 1000 lashes for you! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raif_Badawi

Stupid acts of any countries or persons is not responsibility of Islam. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Altai said:

Stupid acts of any countries or persons is not responsibility of Islam. 

Of course not.  Only those that are very obviously the responsibility of Islam are the responsibility of Islam.  Like the one in the link.

[Goddess]

19 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Lying to the unbeliever:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

Any exceptions are listed.

Perfectly acceptable: lying in this situation does not have the same stigma as it does in Western Civilization.

There was a Muslim family we had as patients (husband, wife, 5 children).  The husband would call in to make appointments, but would lie to me all the time about who the appointments were for.  He would book for himself regularly, then show up with the entire family.

I explained to him that this was not acceptable, as it meant that others who had booked appointments had to wait longer.  I explained that it was no problem booking appointments for the entire fmaily, I just needed to know how many so we could schedule accordingly.  

He laughed in my face and refused to discuss it.  After they went into the exam room, another Muslim lady in the waiting room explained to me about taqiya.  She told me that to Muslims, Westerners are not ever entitled to the truth.  They are free to lie about anything to Westerners.  I asked her why he would feel it was necessary to lie to me in this situation and she just smiled and said, "He does it because you are a woman and because he can."

[DogOnPorch]

Don't worry: Islam = Peace

You'll learn to love it.

[Guest]

Or else, right?

[DogOnPorch]

33 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Or else, right?

 

I believe there are already cases of 'Muslim(s) Only' appearing in Canada. It will get worse...then much worse...then only perhaps will things improve.

That is unless Islam forms a majority by then.....Allahu Akbar. When is the stoning?

Edited November 24, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[?Impact]

Talking about pedophile prophets, a lot can be learned from the many ancient scrolls. Of course these were not among the scrolls that the Catholic church accepted into the canon of the New Testament. Jesus married a young 10 year old Ruth, and had a soft spot for young girls in their early teens. It seems that the three days between Jesus’ supposed Crucifixion and his Resurrection were actually a long weekend with a young fan he met after being acquitted at his trial by the Romans. If you can read ancient Aramaic then you can find he scrolls here, or an English report on their content here.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Talking about pedophile prophets, a lot can be learned from the many ancient scrolls. Of course these were not among the scrolls that the Catholic church accepted into the canon of the New Testament. Jesus married a young 10 year old Ruth, and had a soft spot for young girls in their early teens. It seems that the three days between Jesus’ supposed Crucifixion and his Resurrection were actually a long weekend with a young fan he met after being acquitted at his trial by the Romans. If you can read ancient Aramaic then you can find he scrolls here, or an English report on their content here.

Wasn't that Brian?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Talking about pedophile prophets, a lot can be learned from the many ancient scrolls. Of course these were not among the scrolls that the Catholic church accepted into the canon of the New Testament. Jesus married a young 10 year old Ruth, and had a soft spot for young girls in their early teens. It seems that the three days between Jesus’ supposed Crucifixion and his Resurrection were actually a long weekend with a young fan he met after being acquitted at his trial by the Romans. If you can read ancient Aramaic then you can find he scrolls here, or an English report on their content here.

 

Here's the Archbishop of Canterbury Canturbury talking some more about Jesus.

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by bcsapper

[Benz]

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

There was a Muslim family we had as patients (husband, wife, 5 children).  The husband would call in to make appointments, but would lie to me all the time about who the appointments were for.  He would book for himself regularly, then show up with the entire family.

I explained to him that this was not acceptable, as it meant that others who had booked appointments had to wait longer.  I explained that it was no problem booking appointments for the entire fmaily, I just needed to know how many so we could schedule accordingly.  

He laughed in my face and refused to discuss it.  After they went into the exam room, another Muslim lady in the waiting room explained to me about taqiya.  She told me that to Muslims, Westerners are not ever entitled to the truth.  They are free to lie about anything to Westerners.  I asked her why he would feel it was necessary to lie to me in this situation and she just smiled and said, "He does it because you are a woman and because he can."

Unfortunatly, that happens too often and the occurence increases. It's a concern having serious consequences.

The problem I see with it is how we manage it. So many people use that the wrong way. There are always the 2 extremes. There are the xenophobics that will use such thing against all muslims and blame them all. Then there are those who wil ignore and keep eyes wide shut because the only thing that concerns them, is to fight the xenophobics. The common sense is somewhere in between and it is attacked from both side. Without those two kind of extremists, it's a problem that should be solve more easily.

We should make that man understand that whether he likes it or not, despite what his religious leaders told him, he will respect our system and respect women. Otherwise sanctions should be took against him. Not necessarely deported like some people suggest, but at least something that will force him to respect. Unfortunately, this is not what is happening. When he is not put back in his place, it gives him the felling of great power and he will influence his children the very same way. His boys can become misogynists like him and his girls can become submitted ones like he expects all women to be.

[drummindiver]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

Really? You serious. Do provide an example of how this law is being enforced.

Get a grip man.

There was an example cited. Regardless, man,  it is on the books. As a person who lives in a country that espouses religious freedom and tolerance I find this disconcerting,  man.

[drummindiver]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

No I said its on the books. I also said its no longer enforceable or applicable because of the Charter of Right.

The Charter of rights also says no religion in school, and we've seen how well that worked.

 

[Wilber]

8 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

The Charter of rights also says no religion in school, and we've seen how well that worked.

 

Don't think so.

[?Impact]

37 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

The Charter of rights also says no religion in school, and we've seen how well that worked.

Did you get a different version of the Charter than the rest of us? About religion, what it says under fundamental rights is: freedom of conscience and religion. Under education, it only addresses minority education rights in their own language (English or French) within certain bounds.

Edited November 24, 2016 by ?Impact

[drummindiver]

43 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Did you get a different version of the Charter than the rest of us? About religion, what it says under fundamental rights is: freedom of conscience and religion. Under education, it only addresses minority education rights in their own language (English or French) within certain bounds.

I stand corrected.

[msj]

9 hours ago, Altai said:

Stupid acts of any countries or persons is not responsibility of Islam. 

 

8 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Of course not.  Only those that are very obviously the responsibility of Islam are the responsibility of Islam.  Like the one in the link.

 

To be fair, she's in Turkey so her great leader has not given her permission to read a link to Wikipedia about an apostate in Saudi Arabia.  

 

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Canada's population will be about 100 million by 2100.

Crusty old Xristian laws that nobody uses are going to be the least of the issues.

Yeah, 100 million what though.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah, 100 million what though.

 

Middle Eastern Muslims and Red Chinese Communists, I'd imagine...barring any revolution.

[Rue]

On 11/24/2016 at 0:03 PM, Altai said:

Stupid acts of any countries or persons is not responsibility of Islam. 

It can be when the person who condones the lying says so on behalf of Islam and its followed by Muslims. Then that person and those Muslims who follow it are responsible. You personally as a Muslim no. Just because another Muslim lies or feels that way does not automatically make you a liar because you are Muslim.

I think Dog-Porch's argument is that Muslim extremist terrorists have said openly lying to non believers is not a lie and lying in certain circles, particularly at the government level is widespread. The Arab League of Nations is a joke. Then again so is the UN and any house of politicians. Certainly Yasir Arafat openly condoned lying to non Muslims out loud when he  ripped up the Oslo Agreement. He said it out loud and clear as he made a mockery of the agreement saying it was part of legitimate Muslim warfare to lie to non Muslims and so anything he negotiated  with the US and Israel both countries should have known was a lie and a tactic to stall for time to destroy Israel.

That absolutely ripped the guts out of the peace movement I was part of. It made us look like idiots. It also undermined genuine moderate Muslims and Jews in Israel, Palestine and all over the world  as we were planning withto come to a mutually acceptable agreement.

Extremist Muslims who believe this kind of lying  undermined the peace process and they are no better than the ridiculous idiotic extremist Rabbias who say its o.k. to lie to Muslims. A lie is a lie in any religion and it doesn't matter who you tell it to.

Extremists hijack all religions in the name of their idiocy and hatred.

I am trying to be fair and say, we can't label all Muslims bad because of the terrorists or lairs  in their midst just as when you make sweeping generalizations about Iraelis and Zionists or Canadian "invaders" it is as illogical or unfair. It is as poiitnless as blaming all Catholics for perverted priests or  Christians for the KKK or corrupt evangelists. Its not the words, its how the words are used..

Most of us know a lie is a lie. If we don't we don't fool anyone.

Bottom line, when you live long enough you know we all lie constantly. All humans lie. If we deny that is precisely because we are liars.

There's no such thing as an innocent human unless they are born with a neurological incapacity to prevent them from knowing truth from falsehood. I got know stone to throw I am too busy dodging them.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Rue