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Maybe no Brexit exit.


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15 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

It hasn't failed yet.  Only Because Britain has not actually left, however, the economy has already been given a kick and i\s expected to get worse even with a so-called "soft" Brexit.

Would you agree to a trade agreement with the US where the US had had a veto over our laws and could decide who could and could not enter Canada?  Every international agreement is a limit on sovereignty.  Britain has hundreds of treaties as does Canada.  Every one is a limit on sovereignty to a certain extent.  Foolishly, however, Britain decided to cut itself off from its major trading partners. 

You failed to answer or even address the question. Trade agreements are one thing, but the creeping overreach of the EU in wanting to control laws, regulations and immigration within every member states is not just a limit but an end to sovereignty. I mean, if you can't control who comes into and lives in your country then you have no sovereignty. If your laws have to be approved by an external group then you have no sovereignty.

15 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

The new anti-immigration stand was directed against people who actually look like most Brits, namely people from Eastern Europe, including countries like Poland and Rumania.  Apparently to some Brits if you are not exactly like them then you are undesirable.  In other words it was racism, pure and simple.

I have already explained to you that the desire to live among those who are largely like us, and to resent foreigners arriving in ever greater numbers is a universal trait among human beings. This trait is actually considerably lower among the British than among third world countries. And you concluding racism was the cause of them feeling uncomfortable with growing numbers of white Europeans is idiotic.

15 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

And as for trying to wreck Brexit, the EU didn't have to try very hard.  It was a poorly conceived idea in the first place.  Did Britain actually think that it could break away from the EU, but continue to trade with it as if nothing had happened?

Not really. But the return of sovereignty over their own territory was seen to be worth it.

And what exactly is wrong with simply having a trade agreement which does not remove national sovereignty over borders and laws? Much like the one Canada has with the US.

15 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

 And what do you do about the two million or so Brits who have decided to live in various parts of the EU or the millions more who regularly travel there for business or pleasure? 

Same as with all the Canadians who travel to the US to do business and have winter homes in Florida.

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

You failed to answer or even address the question. Trade agreements are one thing, but the creeping overreach of the EU in wanting to control laws, regulations and immigration within every member states is not just a limit but an end to sovereignty. I mean, if you can't control who comes into and lives in your country then you have no sovereignty. If your laws have to be approved by an external group then you have no sovereignty.

I have already explained to you that the desire to live among those who are largely like us, and to resent foreigners arriving in ever greater numbers is a universal trait among human beings. This trait is actually considerably lower among the British than among third world countries. And you concluding racism was the cause of them feeling uncomfortable with growing numbers of white Europeans is idiotic.

Not really. But the return of sovereignty over their own territory was seen to be worth it.

And what exactly is wrong with simply having a trade agreement which does not remove national sovereignty over borders and laws? Much like the one Canada has with the US.

Same as with all the Canadians who travel to the US to do business and have winter homes in Florida.

I don't have to address the question.  My OP was on the failure of Brexit, not on the rules and regulations of the EU.  You may create your own thread on that if you wish.

Perhaps before declaring a known fact idiotic you might want to do a bit of research.  The Brits have always been a racist bunch of twits; you only have to look at their colonial history to see that.   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/08/vote-leave-racism-brexit-uncivil-war-channel-4

You don't seem to understand how trade agreements work.  Both the US and Canada had to subject themselves to numerous rules and regulations in the original FTA and later in NAFTA. 

And no, traveling to the US during winter is a far cry from the many Brits who have set up permanent residence in the EU.

BTW you might want to avoid insults in your replies.  I can be quite nasty if I choose to be.   

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46 minutes ago, Iznogoud said:

I don't have to address the question.  My OP was on the failure of Brexit, not on the rules and regulations of the EU. 

Your position has been that they were idiots to want to get out of a trade deal with EU. I've pointed out it's way more than a trade deal and deeply infringes on their sovereignty, and your response is that you don't have to address it, and moreover, the British are racists. Both of these points are idiotic. Britain is one of the least racist countries in the world according to any number of studies, and the fact you continue to desperately dodge my question about whether you think Canada would ever sign a 'trade deal' which robbed us of control of our sovereignty speaks volumes.

 

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I just don’t believe the benefit of Brexit was worth the cost, e.g. the time and effort put into it and the loss of EU membership. Britain is going to find out what the world is like these days for a country of middling economic size outside a major bloc. It won’t be all wonderful trade deals and sparkling opportunities; there will also be disputes with bad hombres like the Saudis and Chinese. 

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Doesn't matter now what shoulda, what they need to do is prepare for the worst, since that is what's coming. Contingency plan time.

No one should be surprised that stupid Brits could not come to an agreement. This sad spectacle speaks of the impotence of our government system as partisanship increases. No one is willing to compromise. 

Secondly the reason for compromise, which was nationalism, is not there. Partisans on the left and right have always bickered, but would concede and find agreement "for the good of the country" .

Brexit is really about Britons resisting globalization and wanting to maintain control over their borders. It is a  refutation of globalism, and therefore also a threat to it.

Yet there are, likely, British politicians whose interests are not beholden to the Britons per se, they are globalists. Hence no interest to do what is right, for the country. In fact quite the opposite, Brexit must be painful. If Brexit were seen as good, it is a threat to the integrity of the EU. 

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On 1/18/2019 at 7:30 PM, Argus said:

Your position has been that they were idiots to want to get out of a trade deal with EU. I've pointed out it's way more than a trade deal and deeply infringes on their sovereignty, and your response is that you don't have to address it, and moreover, the British are racists. Both of these points are idiotic. Britain is one of the least racist countries in the world according to any number of studies, and the fact you continue to desperately dodge my question about whether you think Canada would ever sign a 'trade deal' which robbed us of control of our sovereignty speaks volumes.

 

The idiot factor is entirely on your end.  You appear completely unaware of the promises made by the "leave" side, none of which appear to be manifesting themselves.  And I note you have made no effort other than simple denial of the ugly tones of racism the leave side pushed forward.  As someone born in England I am a bit of an Anglophile and am proud of the accomplishments of my birthland, but I have experienced first hand English intolerance toward foreigners.  I would also have little trouble listing dozens of examples of British xenophobia.  The irony is that Britain needs immigrants, so even a complete break from Europe will not free it from an influx of foreigners. 

I also note you have made no effort to reply to the other problems created by Brexit, such as the decline in GDP.  Is that because you have chosen not to or because you can't?

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Brexit is a two-way street. Namely, even if it turns out to be a mistake for the Brits it also hurts what is left of the EU. Losing a big major member-state is huge defeat for the EU too. 

On the other hand, Brexit is a relief for the most ardent federalists within the EU as the most recalcitrant member-state is leaving there is less opposition to the idea of a European super-state.

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12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

The idiot factor is entirely on your end.  You appear completely unaware of the promises made by the "leave" side, none of which appear to be manifesting themselves. 

How are they supposed to 'manifest themselves' when Brexit hasn't happened yet?

12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

And I note you have made no effort other than simple denial of the ugly tones of racism the leave side pushed forward.

I think you're one of those people who sees racism under every bed and in every closet, so I doubt there's much point. Labour supporter, right?

12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

As someone born in England I am a bit of an Anglophile and am proud of the accomplishments of my birthland, but I have experienced first hand English intolerance toward foreigners. 

Such intolerance is universal. English intolerance is considerably less than what you would find in most countries outside of the West.

12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

I would also have little trouble listing dozens of examples of British xenophobia. 

Do any of them include burning foreigners alive, burning down their homes, beating them to death in mass mobs, burning down their churches? That's how non-Western countries show their xenophobia.

12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

The irony is that Britain needs immigrants, so even a complete break from Europe will not free it from an influx of foreigners. 

But at least they'll be able to choose who these immigrants are.

12 hours ago, Iznogoud said:

I also note you have made no effort to reply to the other problems created by Brexit, such as the decline in GDP.  Is that because you have chosen not to or because you can't?

I'm not interested in the bleating of the remain side bent on scaring people into staying as a colony of the EU and surrendering all their national sovereignty in the name of cheaper sausages and more banking jobs.

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53 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

Brexit is a two-way street. Namely, even if it turns out to be a mistake for the Brits it also hurts what is left of the EU. Losing a big major member-state is huge defeat for the EU too. 

On the other hand, Brexit is a relief for the most ardent federalists within the EU as the most recalcitrant member-state is leaving there is less opposition to the idea of a European super-state.

How many other nations would leave if the political elites did what their population wanted?

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1 hour ago, -TSS- said:

Brexit is a two-way street. Namely, even if it turns out to be a mistake for the Brits it also hurts what is left of the EU. Losing a big major member-state is huge defeat for the EU too. 

On the other hand, Brexit is a relief for the most ardent federalists within the EU as the most recalcitrant member-state is leaving there is less opposition to the idea of a European super-state.

‘What is left’ is 27 countries - most of Europe west of Russia. Brexiters needs to get a sense of perspective here. The UK was a valuable member but Tory negotiators swallowed their own blarney and thought Germany would put car exports to Blighty above all other considerations, forcing other members to toe this line. 

The European super-state is a long way off. Just look at the protests in France and the Five Star movement in Italy to say nothing of events in Hungary and Poland. The setbacks of the euro, eastern expansion and immigration from Africa and Asia will slow moves to deeper integration. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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9 hours ago, Argus said:

How are they supposed to 'manifest themselves' when Brexit hasn't happened yet?

I think you're one of those people who sees racism under every bed and in every closet, so I doubt there's much point. Labour supporter, right?

Such intolerance is universal. English intolerance is considerably less than what you would find in most countries outside of the West.

Do any of them include burning foreigners alive, burning down their homes, beating them to death in mass mobs, burning down their churches? That's how non-Western countries show their xenophobia.

But at least they'll be able to choose who these immigrants are.

I'm not interested in the bleating of the remain side bent on scaring people into staying as a colony of the EU and surrendering all their national sovereignty in the name of cheaper sausages and more banking jobs.

Sorry but none of those arguments in any way refuter my OP which simply stated that Brexit appears to be an utter failure.  But that was to be expected given the pie in the sky promises made by those who promoted the leave side.  The latest estimates regarding a "successful" Brexit is that the UK's GDP will drop by at least 3%.  In a worst case scenario a 9% drop is predicted, and those are UK government estimates. 

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On 1/20/2019 at 11:20 PM, Iznogoud said:

The latest estimates regarding a "successful" Brexit is that the UK's GDP will drop by at least 3%.  In a worst case scenario a 9% drop is predicted, and those are UK government estimates. 

Whomever opposes the globalist agenda will be attacked, from all sides no less. It's a simple equation: Brexit failure = Globalism safe. Yet while wealthy globalists lament the loss of their profit margins, ordinary folks who know what it means to struggle to survive are willing to put up with it, in order to make a better future for themselves and their kids.

 

 

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When Norway voted against joining the EU there were similar demands that there should be a hard border between Sweden/Finland and Norway even though the Nordic countries has been a passport-free zone since the 1950's.

It is quite touching how concerned the EU is about its borders. I just wish the same concern applied to illegal immigration across the Mediterranean so that the illegal immigrants wouldnt be towed to Europe instead of back to where they started their perilous journeys. 

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1 hour ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Cameron resigned for his attachment to Bremainers, perhaps May will resign due to Brexit.

Cameron resigned because he was a complete and utter poltroon, who threw the country into chaos with a cowardly and brainless concession to the more nutjob faction of his party.  He was a useless git who will go down in history as one of the worst PMs the country ever had.

Theresa May was told to play a hand full of jokers in a high stakes poker game.  She isn't up to the task, but it's more than likely no-one would be.

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7 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Cameron resigned because he was a complete and utter poltroon, who threw the country into chaos with a cowardly and brainless concession to the more nutjob faction of his party.  He was a useless git who will go down in history as one of the worst PMs the country ever had.

Theresa May was told to play a hand full of jokers in a high stakes poker game.  She isn't up to the task, but it's more than likely no-one would be.

It is a good lesson for the cult of democracy worshipers tho, democracy is simply peaceful transfer of power, nobody ever said it would be a bed of roses.

Everybody says they want democracy, but then nobody wants to do anything with it, you can't have democracy without having some chaos, with crisis comes opportunity, no crisis, no opportunity.

So the case of the matter is; people don't like democracy and they don't want it, they just want to talk about it without actually doing it.

That's why it's the cult of democracy, they're not democratic, they just want to put the word of it on a pedestal and worship it rather than using it.

 

Edited by Dougie93
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Theresa May didn't win the confidence-votes within her party at first and then in parliament at large because anyone would think she is the best person for PM. It's only because nobody in the Tories wants her job. 

Jeremy Corbyn, on the other hand, wants her job very badly and he is doing his best to trigger an election.

May is lucky to have Corbyn as her main-opposer. If there was Tony Blair in his heyday he would chew this Tory-government apart. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

 If there was Tony Blair in his heyday he would chew this Tory-government apart.

And then he would adopt all their policies, followed by leading Britain into some sort of ill thought out military adventure, because Blair lost his first election as an MP to the Thatcherites, due to the Falkland Islands War, and so Blair learned the lesson and became a Thatcherite, if you can't beat them join them.

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Theresa May is the worst PM for decades but yet she is safe as houses. Mainly because the opposition is even worse. 

One may ponder is it even possible for any UK-government to be worse than the current lot but apparently that is the case.

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On 1/26/2019 at 6:11 PM, -TSS- said:

When Norway voted against joining the EU there were similar demands that there should be a hard border between Sweden/Finland and Norway even though the Nordic countries has been a passport-free zone since the 1950's.

It is quite touching how concerned the EU is about its borders. I just wish the same concern applied to illegal immigration across the Mediterranean so that the illegal immigrants wouldnt be towed to Europe instead of back to where they started their perilous journeys. 

Different situations. Although Norway has remained a member of the single market and has a close relationship with the EU, there are still problems on its border with Sweden.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-ireland-border-customs-norway-sweden/

The Irish border could be much more contentious. May seems to want (hard to tell these days) to take the UK out of the single market. If her incompetence leads to a no-deal crash-out, the Irish border will become a huge issue and the DUP will rue the day they supported her. 

 

 

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