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How Christians reconcile supporting the devil


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5 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

No, it hasn't. It really hasn't.

I pointed out specific problems with Trump, his personality, and most importantly his policies which were non-christian (at least with the way that most people think Jebus would have wanted... be kind to your fellow man, help others, don't lie, don't steal, etc.)

 

 

.....I do understand where you're coming from.

  The thread on tolerance addresses  your MISCONCEPTION about what you think Jesus would've wanted.  At least, I assume that they cover it.

 

Furthermore, I asked you to cite a particular verse from Christs (since there are lots of verses about love, acceptance and tolerance), just so I'll know what particular verse you're referring to.  You haven't cited it so far. 

I'll ask again, please cite the verse you're referring to so I can respond properly.

Edited by betsy
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32 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

.....I do understand where you're coming from.

  The thread on tolerance addresses  your MISCONCEPTION about what you think Jesus would've wanted.  At least, I assume that they cover it.

 

Hey, I get it. You're honest in thinking you are quite happy and satisfied with the idea of Christians being thought of as basically evil, immoral people, who are expected to have no compassion towards any individual who doesn't have the same beliefs. By your logic, the guy who shot up the mosque in Quebec city was not doing anything that Jebus would have disapproved of, because you claim that hey, Jebus only cared about his own followers. Screw the other guys.

So Jebus is up there with such moral authority figures as Hitler and Stalin.

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1 minute ago, segnosaur said:

Hey, I get it. You're honest in thinking you are quite happy and satisfied with the idea of Christians being thought of as basically evil, immoral people, who are expected to have no compassion towards any individual who doesn't have the same beliefs. By your logic, the guy who shot up the mosque in Quebec city was not doing anything that Jebus would have disapproved of, because you claim that hey, Jebus only cared about his own followers. Screw the other guys.

So Jebus is up there with such moral authority figures as Hitler and Stalin.

Still no cite?

Let's continue once you cite the particular verse you're referring to.  Otherwise, I'd take it that it's one of the verses already given in the thread The Truth About Tolerance and Acceptance.

 

See you later...........anytime you're equipped to tackle this discussion seriously.

 

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2 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Hey, I get it. You're honest in thinking you are quite happy and satisfied with the idea of Christians being thought of as basically evil, immoral people, who are expected to have no compassion towards any individual who doesn't have the same beliefs. By your logic, the guy who shot up the mosque in Quebec city was not doing anything that Jebus would have disapproved of, because you claim that hey, Jebus only cared about his own followers. Screw the other guys.

So Jebus is up there with such moral authority figures as Hitler and Stalin.

Thankfully, not all Christians subscribe to Betsy's belief.  As far as I'm concerned, she is from that subgroup of Christians who give Christianity a bad name as they support and condone terrible and even deadly actions in the name of their God.   

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Thankfully, not all Christians subscribe to Betsy's belief.  As far as I'm concerned, she is from that subgroup of Christians who give Christianity a bad name as they support and condone terrible and even deadly actions in the name of their God.   

You're free to have an opinion of me.  As for that insult, here's my response....have a go at it.  Knock yourself out.

 

< turning the other cheek >

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5 minutes ago, betsy said:

You're free to have an opinion of me.  As for that insult, here's my response....have a go at it.  Knock yourself out.

< turning the other cheek >

So, you basically claim that Jebus is an immoral monster like hitler or stalin, who is quite happy if non-believers suffer,  someone points out that that is morally wrong, and you pretend like you are some saint by "turning the other cheek".

Here's a suggestion... rather than worrying about turning the other cheek when someone points out how immoral you are, perhaps you should, I don't know, try to be a better person by actually helping others in true need, regardless of their background, (And the first thing that you can do about that is opposing Trump.)

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13 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

So, you basically claim that Jebus is an immoral monster like hitler or stalin, who is quite happy if non-believers suffer,  someone points out that that is morally wrong, and you pretend like you are some saint by "turning the other cheek".

Here's a suggestion... rather than worrying about turning the other cheek when someone points out how immoral you are, perhaps you should, I don't know, try to be a better person by actually helping others in true need, regardless of their background, (And the first thing that you can do about that is opposing Trump.)

 

Still waiting for your cite. 

Edited by betsy
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17 minutes ago, betsy said:

Still no cite?

Why would I need to? You've convinced me... Jebus is an immoral monster who only cares about his own believers and thinks everyone else should suffer.

I think its an immoral stance. Millions of Christains think its an immoral stance. But hey, Jebus said so, and nobody ever misinterpreted Jebus before, have they.

 

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11 minutes ago, segnosaur said:

Why would I need to? You've convinced me... Jebus is an immoral monster who only cares about his own believers and thinks everyone else should suffer.

I think its an immoral stance. Millions of Christains think its an immoral stance. But hey, Jebus said so, and nobody ever misinterpreted Jebus before, have they.

 

You're saying you cannot support what you say?  Why am I not surprised? :)

In other words, it's already been addressed in the other thread.  You've got no verse to give....:lol:

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  • 11 months later...

Looks like this thread is relevant again.  

Quote

 

betsy

I was an adulterer.  But thanks to my merciful God - I've confessed and have been forgiven.   Jesus died for sinners like me.

 

 

Quote

 

dialamah

And so you support and admire adulterers?   I can understand praying for them, given your beliefs, but not so actively supporting and admiring them.

 

 

Read what I've said again.  See the boldened statement?  Try to wrap your head around it.

 

Btw,  do you know for a fact that Trump is still an adulterer?  He confides in you?  Can you prove it?

Edited by betsy
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Oh, did I keep you waiting while I pursued my real life, which includes work, outside of this forum?  EXcuuuuse me for keeping your royal self waiting.   \s

Regardless of the rationalizations hypocritical Christians attempt to make, it is still hypocritocal to disaprove of Biblically-forbidden activities, use that to condemn some people (ie: Bill Clinton) and then ignore the same behavior in someone else while singing their praises (ie: Donald Trump).  Your long list of reasons/excuses don't change that basic hypocrisy.

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On 3/29/2018 at 10:34 AM, dialamah said:

Oh, did I keep you waiting while I pursued my real life, which includes work, outside of this forum?  EXcuuuuse me for keeping your royal self waiting.   \s

Regardless of the rationalizations hypocritical Christians attempt to make, it is still hypocritocal to disaprove of Biblically-forbidden activities, use that to condemn some people (ie: Bill Clinton) and then ignore the same behavior in someone else while singing their praises (ie: Donald Trump).  Your long list of reasons/excuses don't change that basic hypocrisy.

....."hypocrisy" to you, because you don't seem to understand the big difference.  In fact, you understand squat!

 

Like I've said before, it's not the adultery (with bill Clinton) - that's a marital problem.  It's his usage of the White House for his trysts.

 

Quote

 

An affair of state

At the heart of Kenneth Starr's explicit but coldly clinical report is a furtive sex drama

 

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/1998/09/14/affair.state.html

 

I also gave reasons why Trump has Christian supporters!  Did you read them?

The only one who's starting to look like a hypocrite, is you!  Pretending to understand what you don't!

 

 

Furthermore, where do you base your accusation of adultery by Trump?  You've used your accusations to label his Christian supporters as hypocrites.  How do you know he hasn't confessed it, and repented?

 

  I'll repeat my questions again:

Do you know for a fact that Trump is still an adulterer?  He confides in you?  Can you prove it?

 

If you can't answer that.......then......is it fair to assume that you're also a......... liar?

 

 

Edited by betsy
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On 10/16/2016 at 12:27 PM, eyeball said:

So the next question is; how do principled conservatives reconcile supporting the right wing?

First thing they should do is straighten out their deeply flawed perception that corporations are people just like any other human beings.  

First thing you need to do is evolve past your childish and simplistic stereotyping of what you refer to as  "principled conservatives". You can't go a sentence without throwing out idiotic stereotypes of groups you invent in your head then project externally to then pretend they exist. Then again I suppose using your level of conversation and cognitive processing I should say its what I would expect from a shrill leftist.

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Now if we actually were to respond to the debate title I would have said traditional Christianity as interpreted literally as Betsy does sees Satan as a distinct entity with many different shapes ranging in the form of a human being to a large winged creature to a fang toothed and horned serpent like creature.

In my world  however Satan is in all humans and is for want of a better way to explain it-negative energy. In my world which is currently the third dimension, all life forms are encased in physical flesh bodies limited in perception to a material 3 dimensional world defined by the 5 senses and the believe I and WE are distinct and are fueled by a  never ending clash of duality, positive and negative energy.

The so called reconciliation of Satan would only come if you follow traditional Christianity  if Satan asked Jesus to forgive him and give himself over to Jesus. This  of course is not likely as the distinct entity called Satan in their religion will never do this and symbolizes the negative force that must duel constantly with the positive force of Jesus so that from thatt never ending battle the truth can arise. With no Satan to test or clash with Jesus, there would be no contrast between light and dark, good and bad from which to be able to understand both. Its the contrasting or clashing of different entities we are told truth comes out of. Thus male and female, life and death, you and me, all defined as distinct and conflicting.

In our three dimensional world positive and negative  energy clashes and through a dialectic process reconciles through balancing the two by becoming a bit of both through synthesis. We are in that sense a never ending battle of these two energies cancelling one another out so to speak to create what we then call truth or the eye of our hurricane otherwise called life.

The negative is required as much as the positive for without the two clashing, there would be no fuel so to speak in cells to form life and what we call existence.

Some speculate we are myopic and can only define through this clash of duality as long as we are in the third dimension where we allow materiality and our five senses to limit the boundaries of how far we will be willing to perceive any paradigm for addressing any questions of meaning and existence.

I personally believe Adam and Eve are codified references to the matter within energy-basic physics.

I believe the true intent of the Christian parables was to explain that positive actions produce a cascading effect of positive actions just as negative actions create a cascading effect of negative actions and that each of our souls has the choice to set off either sequence depending on how we decide. I think the original Christian beliefs were Agnostic and did  not refer to  Jesus as THE messiah but A messiah and explaining to us all we are ALL messiahs no different than him which would be more in line with the doctrine of tekam olem he put into practice, the Talmudic concept of connecting to God through the unconditional love of all.

In that matter we are all  a potential Jesus and unfortunately a potential Satan. Each one of us was born so to speak to be able to heal the world through forgiveness and positive actions, or wound or destroy the world through negative actions.

So I don't see Satan as a God with wings anymore than I would any so called God. I see infinite cascading streams of energy that clearly came from somewhere and will continue to go somewhere constantly evolving in shape or meaning as it journeys forth seeking meaning. The clash of the negative and positive is the fuel so to speak that keeps the journey flowing. If there was absolute harmony, we would cease to journey to look for meaning and existas we know it- for existence is simply the exercise of looking for meaning in a constant journey with no beginning or end and was meant to be infinite.

If we  did achieve ultimate reconciliation we would return to or absorb ourselves back into our original source  or point from where we split off from a greater whole and cease to be either positive or negative.

I think people find it easier to explain evil through parables like the stories of Satan or God through personification using the Christ figure. God is an abstract concept that is far easier understood by some when we give it a human form and qualities. In that sense its no different than watching Star Trek and everyone speaks English and has human qualities when we know the probability of aliens being similiar to us as much as it was in Star Trek is unrealistic.

Satan is thought of as a demon-an evil source controlling your individual thoughts and tricking you into giving away your free will. So if you believe that it is possible that what we cakk Jesus may be in fact Satan posing as Jesus-how would one know the difference?

With that in mind, for me I argue, your soul is in fact you, yourself and if you delegate away your free choice and thinking process to anyone or thing, you are deceiving yourself.

If this thing called God exists, it would not be logical to think it is dettached from your individuality and not the same as you. That would make no sense. If you come from  a greater power you still are that power choosing to share itself in your form. That connection then, never ends. For me Satan or evil or negative is simply forgetting that and forgetting that me/us as an illusion and is not different. We are all  God and when we feel we are not and its distinct from us, that I believe is caused by too much negative energy or focus.

 

Edited by Rue
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I think many people who like to use Trump to throw dirt at Christians fail to understand Trump's base's point of view.

I think the reason why many evangelicals reportedly supported Trump is quite simple.  Obviously they don't support the immoral things he may have said and done in his past.  But they heard his promises and saw some merit in that.

There were only two choices with any chance of winning,  Clinton and Trump.  Hillary being a vocal supporter of pro choice or pro abortion rights would automatically disqualify her there in the minds of those who believe in the sanctity of life of the unborn particularly.  There have been millions of abortions in the U.S. in the last number of decades.  Trump said in the campaign he would oppose abortion rights.

Evangelicals also see Democrats and liberals as supporting an thinly veiled bigotry against Christianity in the U.S.  Examples are the ACLU taking schools or government institutions to court for having prayer in public schools and or Bible readings.  They also see pushing same-sex marriage and LGBT rights as a further assault on traditional family values.  Trump opposes trans people in the Armed Forces.   Democrats push all this stuff.

Trump's promise to build a wall is a winning one because many right of centre voters see the large scale illegal immigration as a threat and want something done about it.  The Democrats want to keep open borders and would not deport illegal aliens involved in crime.  In fact they create sanctuary cities.

Stopping the flow of middle eastern and African who might be a security risk or hostile to American culture is another issue the appeals to Trump's base. 

 

The fact is we live in a system where there is not much choice of who to vote for.  So it is often a matter of choosing the least of evils.  Many saw Trump as the least of evils.  His promises and policies are what would make a difference, not his personal life in the past.  Democrats want to focus on that because it diverts from the real issues and hides their own dark agenda.  Trump seems to be making an effort to fulfil his promises, although he is hampered or slowed down by some of the elite establishment people.

 

Edited by blackbird
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I get it.  The Christians who support Trump do so because they hope he'll impose their conservative Christian beliefs on everyone in the country.  This is the same reason some Egyptians supported Morsi: they wanted their conservative Islamic beliefs imposed on everyone in the country.  

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55 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I get it.  The Christians who support Trump do so because they hope he'll impose their conservative Christian beliefs on everyone in the country.  This is the same reason some Egyptians supported Morsi: they wanted their conservative Islamic beliefs imposed on everyone in the country.  

Yes.  Much like globalists and leftists vote to impose their ideology on everyone in the country.

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39 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes.  Much like globalists and leftists vote to impose their ideology on everyone in the country.

How are leftists and globalist "imposing" anything? 

Leftist\globalist:  you can be gay, transgender, feminist, take birth control, not take birth control, have an abortion, not have an abortion, go to Church, not go to Church, believe in God, not believe in God, marry someone you love or not marry at all.  You cannot beat anyone up or treat people with disrespect if they believe differently than you do.

Conservative Religious people:  You should not be allowed to have an abortion, be gay, be transgender or marry certain people because it offends me.  I should not have to treat you with respect if you offend me.  My God is the true God and my country and society would be better off if what I believe was imposed on everyone.  I would like that to happen, therefore I support people I think or hope would get us closer to the goal of ensuring women can't have abortions and gays and transgender people are not acceptable in my country.

Who has the agenda of imposing their beliefs on everyone?  Is it the "live and let live" leftists and globalists or the "Its my job to pursue God"s will for myself and everyone else" conservative religious person?

Be honest.

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37 minutes ago, dialamah said:

How are leftists and globalist "imposing" anything? 

Leftist\globalist:  you can be gay, transgender, feminist, take birth control, not take birth control, have an abortion, not have an abortion, go to Church, not go to Church, believe in God, not believe in God, marry someone you love or not marry at all.  You cannot beat anyone up or treat people with disrespect if they believe differently than you do.

Conservative Religious people:  You should not be allowed to have an abortion, be gay, be transgender or marry certain people because it offends me.  I should not have to treat you with respect if you offend me.  My God is the true God and my country and society would be better off if what I believe was imposed on everyone.  I would like that to happen, therefore I support people I think or hope would get us closer to the goal of ensuring women can't have abortions and gays and transgender people are not acceptable in my country.

Who has the agenda of imposing their beliefs on everyone?  Is it the "live and let live" leftists and globalists or the "Its my job to pursue God"s will for myself and everyone else" conservative religious person?

Be honest.

That's your own definition of things which is not correct.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of what they do.  Unfortunately Trudeau doesn't do that when he puts his own spin on who get funding for student summer jobs and stuffs his personal immigration views down everyone's throat. He goes on twitter and says any and all are welcome to come in to Canada and thousands answered his call to come in illegally, including many with criminal records or security risk who we can't get rid of now because their home countries won't take them back.  But many in the left believe in open borders and that the world should be invited in.  Pointless to get into the abortion debate now.

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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

That's your own definition of things which is not correct.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of what they do.  Unfortunately Trudeau doesn't do that when he puts his own spin on who get funding for student summer jobs and stuffs his personal immigration views down everyone's throat. He goes on twitter and says any and all are welcome to come in to Canada and thousands answered his call to come in illegally, including many with criminal records or security risk who we can't get rid of now because their home countries won't take them back.  But many in the left believe in open borders and that the world should be invited in.  Pointless to get into the abortion debate now.

What problem do you have with the rest of the world?  Doesn't your Lord tell you to accept the world, to be generous, not to pre-judge?  Seems to me JT is following those principles and Trump is not.

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15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What problem do you have with the rest of the world?  Doesn't your Lord tell you to accept the world, to be generous, not to pre-judge?  Seems to me JT is following those principles and Trump is not.

"15

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."  1 John 2:15-17

King James Bible

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Matthew 22:39, And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself..” 

Romans 15:7 "Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God."

Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again"

Luke 6:27-29

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also

Perhaps you can find scripture where Jesus instructs Christians to build walls to keep people away, to pre-judge strangers as criminals, to refuse to help those who are suffering, to support and promote leaders who lie and cheat.  

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21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Matthew 22:39, And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself..” 

Romans 15:7 "Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God."

Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again"

Luke 6:27-29

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also

Perhaps you can find scripture where Jesus instructs Christians to build walls to keep people away, to pre-judge strangers as criminals, to refuse to help those who are suffering, to support and promote leaders who lie and cheat.  

You are mixing political decisions by government with what Jesus taught to individuals.   Government has a responsibility to protect it's country and citizens.  Protecting borders and controlling immigration is necessary to protect a nation.  All countries do this in some way or another.   Jesus did not go into politics of nations.  He said his kingdom is not of this world.  Communists and liberals love to take verses and try to use them to back up their Communist or liberal ideology of state control or immigration policy.  But Jesus was no Communist and did not advocate how the Roman Empire should be run.   Jesus said nothing about a border wall.  A wall is a legitimate tool to keep illegal aliens and criminals out.

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29 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are mixing political decisions by government with what Jesus taught to individuals.   Government has a responsibility to protect it's country and citizens.  Protecting borders and controlling immigration is necessary to protect a nation.  All countries do this in some way or another.   Jesus did not go into politics of nations.  He said his kingdom is not of this world.  Communists and liberals love to take verses and try to use them to back up their Communist or liberal ideology of state control or immigration policy.  But Jesus was no Communist and did not advocate how the Roman Empire should be run.   Jesus said nothing about a border wall.  A wall is a legitimate tool to keep illegal aliens and criminals out.

Do you seriously think Jesus would approve of Trump?   

And if Jesus was not involving himself in the political world and advising his followers to also keep themselves separate, why would Christians allow themselves to be so involved in politics, whether its supporting a lying adulterer, or seeking political power and calling themselves Christian?

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12 hours ago, blackbird said:

You are mixing political decisions by government with what Jesus taught to individuals.   Government has a responsibility to protect it's country and citizens.  Protecting borders and controlling immigration is necessary to protect a nation.  All countries do this in some way or another.   Jesus did not go into politics of nations.  He said his kingdom is not of this world.  Communists and liberals love to take verses and try to use them to back up their Communist or liberal ideology of state control or immigration policy.  But Jesus was no Communist and did not advocate how the Roman Empire should be run.   Jesus said nothing about a border wall.  A wall is a legitimate tool to keep illegal aliens and criminals out.

There's nothing wrong with a wall, per se.  I have a fence around my vegetables to keep the critters out.  Only it didn't cost 5 billion dollars, actually does keep the critters out, and I didn't build it just to maintain my popularity.

And that said, Jesus did have a lot to say about border walls.  The problem is it was all in one of those dead sea scrolls that some peasant burned to keep warm.  Don't ask me how I know.

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