Wynne says Hydro rates an "Urgent" Issue

[bush_cheney2004]

Ooooh...I like this part of the story from Smitherman:

Former deputy premier George Smitherman, who midwifed the original green-energy plan, testified on Windstream’s side, saying the on-again-off-again-on-again moratoriums made Ontario look like a banana republic.

 

 

[Ash74]

Yeah and the fact Toronto dodged a bullet by voting for Rob Ford over him speaks to the quality of Smitherman.

[Ash74]

now there are some that wonder how anybody could still support Trump. I agree with them.

But I as how could anybody still support the Wynne government?

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-liberals-spent-almost-all-of-12m-for-hydro-rebate-on-consultants-ads-minister-admits

 

[cybercoma]

Wynne's government really sucks. That's one of the crappier things I've heard of politicians doing. I couldn't stand it when the federal Conservatives spent tons of money on marketing programs, instead of running them, and this is equally damning. Chances are Ontario won't have a Liberal government in the next election anyway. They tend not to elect the same provincial government as the federal government.

[?Impact]

1 hour ago, Ash74 said:

But I as how could anybody still support the Wynne government?

 

Most thinking people don't. The problem is there are a lot of non-thinking people out there that vote Liberal because their daddy voted Liberal and their granddaddy voted Liberal, etc.  (Same Progressive Conservative, etc.). We need people to engage and actually evaluate the options.

[Ash74]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

 

Most thinking people don't. The problem is there are a lot of non-thinking people out there that vote Liberal because their daddy voted Liberal and their granddaddy voted Liberal, etc.  (Same Progressive Conservative, etc.). We need people to engage and actually evaluate the options.

I may not agree with the NDP policies but I understand the argument. What I can't understand is backing the ontario liberals. 

[Boges]

The big issue with Hydro rates is the added charges put onto them, not the actual price of the Hydro. If you live in an Urban or Suburban part of the province, your delivery charges aren't a big deal, but when you live in buttbleep nowhere they really hit you hard with delivery charges. All those lines going all the way up North for a negligible population. 

Regardless, Wynne and Co. are panicking and will move to help people in parts of the province that probably won't vote for her anyway. 

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/02/15/relief-package-coming-for-northern-rural-hydro-users-kathleen-wynne-says.html

Quote

 

The poor, rural and northern residents facing “even more of a challenge” from high electricity costs will get special attention in a new hydro relief package, Premier Kathleen Wynne says.

The aid plan, expected within weeks, will build on an 8 per cent instant rebate — equivalent to the provincial portion of the HST — on electricity bills that kicked in on Jan. 1.

“That actually isn’t enough,” Wynne told reporters Wednesday before cabinet ministers heard detailed proposals from Energy Minister Glen Thibeault behind closed doors.

“The reality is that there has been an increase in everyone’s electricity bills, but there are some people who are carrying a disproportionate burden,” she added.

Thibeault said options include moving some costs of the electricity system from homeowners and businesses through their hydro rates to the broader base of taxpayers, sharing the load more widely.

He would not estimate how much more Ontarians could save on their electricity bills, saying it depends on what elements the government chooses.

They include helping rural and northern residents in extreme cases where remote delivery charges for electricity are punishing, but not a general scenario where urban residents with relatively cheaper delivery costs subsidize all rural residents, sources have said.

 

It looks like the province will have to subsidize rural hydro customers. If that results in an increase in urban/suburban prices or increased taxes elsewhere, Watch Out!

[Bob Macadoo]

33 minutes ago, Boges said:

The big issue with Hydro rates is the added charges put onto them, not the actual price of the Hydro. If you live in an Urban or Suburban part of the province, your delivery charges aren't a big deal, but when you live in buttbleep nowhere they really hit you hard with delivery charges. All those lines going all the way up North for a negligible population. 

Regardless, Wynne and Co. are panicking and will move to help people in parts of the province that probably won't vote for her anyway. 

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/02/15/relief-package-coming-for-northern-rural-hydro-users-kathleen-wynne-says.html

It looks like the province will have to subsidize rural hydro customers. If that results in an increase in urban/suburban prices or increased taxes elsewhere, Watch Out!

It looks like they're going to do what all politicians do.......sell the future to fund the present.  Reduction in the infrastructure financing portion of your bill meaning they will let the grid rot again.  Also moving the poor rebate from you power bill to your tax bill.  Shell games.....politicians first love.

[?Impact]

3 hours ago, Boges said:

will have to subsidize rural ...

So what's new?

[Topaz]

Those delivery charge are high in rural areas, mine last month was 70.00 alone and another problem some people may face is IF u r on a budget... you pay your monthly charge and any surplus is add over , each month , so by the end of the year, one could have a bill worth hundreds because of high rates.  Also, I hear of a couple  who wanted to have the wind turbine taken down because its drying out the land and nothing is growing and were told it would cost 5 million and they are not allowed to go near the turbine because the land isn't theirs. So, it looks like all these turbines are here to stay forever!

[?Impact]

2 hours ago, Topaz said:

 Also, I hear of a couple  who wanted to have the wind turbine taken down because its drying out the land and nothing is growing

Did they read the actual study from École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne or did they just hear the one point and latched onto it?

[capricorn]

Wynne is running scared, and plans to cut hydro rates by 17%. How will she do that? By financing electricity generation contracts over a longer period. Wynne is smelling blood in the water,,,,her blood.

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/wynne-reportedly-planning-additional-17-per-cent-cut-to-hydro-rates-1.3306287

 

[Boges]

I hope voters realize she's not actually dropping Hydro Prices, she's just subsidizing it with taxpayer money. Textbook case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.  

I wish member Waldo was still posting here because he was an advocate for these Green Energy FIT programs where generators of Green Power got paid regardless of need. That appears to be the main culprit of the Hydro problem. I'd be curious how he'd defend Wynne's actions here. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Boges

[?Impact]

22 minutes ago, Boges said:

I hope voters realize she's not actually dropping Hydro Prices, she's just subsidizing it with taxpayer money.

Other than some spurious commentary by Patrick Brown, how did you arrive at that conclusion? The description was longer term contacts at lower prices. Now the devil is in the details, but it is a very different scenario than you and Brown are spouting. 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

Other than some spurious commentary by Patrick Brown, how did you arrive at that conclusion? The description was longer term contacts at lower prices. Now the devil is in the details, but it is a very different scenario than you and Brown are spouting. 

Well the 8% reduction is most certainly a subsidy. And it's just a continuation of the 10% rebate McGuinty put in place years ago.

Extending a term of a loan to lower costs initially would result in paying more over time. Like paying for a car over 7 years instead of 5. You pay less per months but you end up paying way more over the course of the loan due to interest. 

[?Impact]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

Extending a term of a loan to lower costs initially would result in paying more over time. Like paying for a car over 7 years instead of 5. You pay less per months but you end up paying way more over the course of the loan due to interest. 

There is a difference between a car loan and a service contract. After the loan period is up, you own the car. In a service contract, at the end you need to negotiate a new one or the service stops.

[Boges]

56 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

There is a difference between a car loan and a service contract. After the loan period is up, you own the car. In a service contract, at the end you need to negotiate a new one or the service stops.

So they extended the period the province is locked in these bad deals then. Maybe it's all they can do, something is better then nothing. But they haven't fixed this problem and shouldn't be rewarded another mandate because of it. 

[?Impact]

14 minutes ago, Boges said:

So they extended the period the province is locked in these bad deals then. Maybe it's all they can do, something is better then nothing. But they haven't fixed this problem and shouldn't be rewarded another mandate because of it. 

No they shouldn't. We need a real government that is not afraid to rip up the Mike Harris Electricity Act of 1998 and go back to public utilities instead of vectoring profit to crony friends in private industry.

b.t.w. it sounds like the deals are renegotiated for lower cost over longer term. That is like having your $40/month 2-year contract with bell extended into a $33/month 3-year contract.

Edited March 1, 2017 by ?Impact

[Boges]

Here's a good report by the Globe and Bail about the Hydro situation. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-does-electricity-cost-so-much-in-ontario/article33453270/?cmpid=PM0317_livedesk

It's these 20 (now 25) year contracts that are the biggest culprits. The Province is forced to pay for electricity it doesn't need. And is paying people to generate Green Energy that doesn't factor into the baseload.

Not sure what Brown can do to break these contracts or re-negotiate them. But regardless, the Liberals should be turfed for getting us in this mess in the first place.

What's gonna make me want to scream is hearing the Liberals claim that this 8% subsidy is real change in helping the hydro issue. It's bribing people with their own money and, as the above story notes, it doesn't really do much to help the people who can least afford these increases. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Boges

[Argus]

It's just a shell game.

The Ontario government is cutting power prices to residential customers by 25 per cent by stretching out financing for past contracts and shifting some $2.5-billion in electricity costs over three years to the province’s general budget.

The $2.5-billion in costs shifted to taxpayers from ratepayers is in addition to $1-billion a year in costs to the province’s treasury from the elimination of the provincial sales tax from hydro bills.

Most of the savings will come from extending the financing period – the amortization – of existing debt that was included in customers’ bills as the global adjustment. The provincially owned Ontario Power Generation will handle the refinancing, which will cut overall costs by $2.5-billion a year over the next 10 years, but add roughly $25-billion in interest costs over 30 years.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-wynne-slashes-hydro-rates/article34183180/

[Moonlight Graham]

ON taxpayers should sue the ON Liberal Party for gross mismanagement & corruption of the hydro infrastructure.

[Topaz]

I listened to Brown and he said about cancelling the wind contracts, ok, but the ones here and now can't be without a very heavy fine to Ontario but he could stop any future ones. Why not take the extra power they give way and  give it to customers?  It will be interesting to see if any of those CEO's receive bonuses in the future. Perhaps the answer is for homeowners to turn to solar panel on their roof and  gas generators to run their homes, sure would cut down on cost in the long run.

[TimG]

On 3/1/2017 at 2:51 PM, Boges said:

Not sure what Brown can do to break these contracts or re-negotiate them. But regardless, the Liberals should be turfed for getting us in this mess in the first place.

http://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/companies-people/governments-can-cancel-contracts-without-huge-penalties/1003320601/

Quote

In “Cancelling Contracts: the Power of Governments to Unilaterally Alter Agreements,” author Bruce Pardy argues: “Government contracts are not the ironclad agreements they appear to be because govern¬ments may change or cancel them by enacting legislation.” Pardy is a law professor at Queen’s University.

Common law interpretation requires that the government place the intent to cancel specific contracts in legislation. It can't pass legislation that has the indirect effect of cancelling contracts and argue later that it should not have to pay compensation.

[?Impact]

49 minutes ago, Topaz said:

Perhaps the answer is for homeowners to turn to solar panel on their roof and  gas generators to run their homes, sure would cut down on cost in the long run.

The cost of gas would be far more than current hydro costs, and then you would have the additional problem/cost of maintaining the generator. Solar may pay for itself in the long run for a small percentage of homeowners, but not most. Those that are able to make money from solar today are because they sell [excess] to the grid, alternative storage costs would be too high.

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-does-electricity-cost-so-much-in-ontario/article33453270/

Good background knowledge in this article.  It doesn't seem, from what I read, that Green energy is a major contributor.

Wynne isn't at fault, but the Liberals are.  The new approach to lowering rates seems to be another shell game, and I doubt it will save her politically.