The War on Terror has failed

[eyeball]

The British Empire is gone...God must have been busy elsewhere.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The British Empire is gone...God must have been busy elsewhere.

 

Such a gift to the Middle East it was.    "Terrorism" hall of fame eligible.

[eyeball]

The gift that keeps on giving.

[GostHacked]

On 10/16/2016 at 0:10 PM, eyeball said:

By a wide margin too.

 

It would be more appropriate if the US and Russia were blowing each other's planes out of the sky instead of throwing dictators and warlords at one another.

That said, nothing might cause more unity amongst Muslims than seeing Russia and the US as partners and allies united in co-dominion over them.

 

It's interesting that some don'tt alk about where the support for certain terror groups are coming from. IF Russia does it, bad.. if the US does it, good.  But BOTH are supporting terrorism, plain and simple. It's these policies on both sides that have destroyed nations like Afghanistan, Iraq and the most recent example Syria. I guess we can throw Ukraine in there as well.

[kactus]

34 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

 

It's interesting that some don'tt alk about where the support for certain terror groups are coming from. IF Russia does it, bad.. if the US does it, good.  But BOTH are supporting terrorism, plain and simple. It's these policies on both sides that have destroyed nations like Afghanistan, Iraq and the most recent example Syria. I guess we can throw Ukraine in there as well.

It's more complex than that...

Syria geopolitically is very important to US, Russia, China and Iran. They all have vested interest although different. 

Russia alone is the most technologically advanced country in the world. Do not underestimate them....IMO the Russian airforce supported by the Iranians on the ground have taken the right approach in Syria fighting the ISIS. Something that the US and the west have overlooked...

 

 

[Rue]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

It's more complex than that...

Syria geopolitically is very important to US, Russia, China and Iran. They all have vested interest although different. 

Russia alone is the most technologically advanced country in the world. Do not underestimate them....IMO the Russian airforce supported by the Iranians on the ground have taken the right approach in Syria fighting the ISIS. Something that the US and the west have overlooked...

 

 

Yes sir blowing up Alleppo day after day sure is the right approach in fighting ISIS. I mean never mind there is no ISIS in Alleppo. Say isn't it interesting

you are the first to come on this forum and scream like crazy about Israel being a war criminal and you have such a double standard when it comes to the Russians.

Hey who would have thought.

 

 

[kactus]

21 hours ago, Rue said:

Yes sir blowing up Alleppo day after day sure is the right approach in fighting ISIS. I mean never mind there is no ISIS in Alleppo. Say isn't it interesting

you are the first to come on this forum and scream like crazy about Israel being a war criminal and you have such a double standard when it comes to the Russians.

Hey who would have thought.

 

 

Clearly the tactics of the Americans vis a vis Syria hasn't worked. Years of failed foreign policies have backfired in that region...

What do you suggest?

As far as Israel is concerned do not be under any illusions. My stance hasn't changed in so far as the plight of Palestinians and continuous expansion of illegal settlements by the Israelis in the occupies territories ...No one wants to live in those conditions.

Edited October 20, 2016 by kactus

[Rue]

Yes and clearly the tactics of the Russians, Iranians and Chinese vis a vis Syria hasn't worked and clearly the financing of Muslim terrorists by both Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iran has not worked.

You selectively only criticize the US or Israel in your posts and that's why I made the comment I did. Syria and Russia and out lied denying they were bombing Aleppo yet this week called for a ceasefire to their air bombings? Why if they are not bombing?

You asked what I suggest. I don't think suprising to you I am goingt o be in disagreement with you. I think ideally all foreign air forces and the Syrian air force should immediately agree to get out of the air and leave all of Syria an air free space except for humanitarian flights from the UN or Red Cross, etc.

Then I believe all forces in all regions of Syria need to call for a cease fire. easier said than done because right now Syria is split into thousands of tiny zones, each with their own leader and militia. Its anarchy, a failed state no different than Somalia with a breakdown of central administration of any kind.

In such circumstances a true cease fire is going to be impossible unless an international peace force comes in. That would take many months of planning and require require genunely neutral countries to step up, i.e., probably South Korea, Japan, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, countries not perceived to be pro or anti Syria. To coordinate them coming in on  the ground to rebuild roads, water systems, shelter tent zones for displaced civilians, hospitals, etc., will take years and no it won't happen unless Assad voluntarily steps down and a UN administrator takes over pending some kind of process to appoint a new interim leader as elections are not possible for now.

We both agree that is the only realistic way surely. Putin in as much said in the long term its realistic to understand Assad has to go but he and China don't want a puppet in power that impacts on the oil flowing through Syria to both Iran and China. Also keep in mind as we speak, 95% of oil from Iraq today goes to China and Russia no one else strange as that may sound.

Russia and China are in this no different than the US and everyone else to protect their oil supply lines.

Whether you or I like it its going to come down to the oil meganationals and how they divide it all up. That is what is going on now. China, Russia and Iran are all taking advantage of a US leadership vacuum created by Obama, to move in and secure boldy on the ground their stakes in the oil. They did not do that in the Bush days or in the Reagan or even Clinton years. 

No one saw Obama pulling the US off centre stage particularly in the Middle East. No one predicted China would set up a naval port down the street from the US naval port in Djibouti at one quarter the rent and five times the size.

No one predicted Putin would physically come in on the ground or in the air in Syria until the Ukraine fell and the US sat back.

The hegemony, the fight for securing control zones across the world took a new shape in the Middle East without the US being the no.1 mediator.

That's what happened.

Its not an accicdent Hilary Clinton's sudden new desire to flex muscle and put Russia and China in its place has arisen. She's courting Republican votes for her foreign policy given what a complete lunatic Trump is.

Hilary Clinton I think is going to model herself on Margaret Thatcher not Mrs. Merkel on foreign policy. She sounds like Merkel talking about imigration but when she switches to foreign policy, hey the Iron Lady comes out.

I do think she can handle Putin I do think a stronger US presence to reunite the West and balance Russia and China in all their meddlings in the Middle East is needed.

What you won't aclnowledge is that Muslim terrorism which fuels Palestinian terrorism as well is not simply a result of reacting to Israel or the US. Muslim civil war has continued since Islam developed into a society that did not and does not divide religion from state. Its always been there. The Russians, Chinese, Americans, existence of Israel, give it nw pretenses to flare up but its always been there.

I argue corruption and failure to build democratic institutions and traditions in the Muslim Middle East because of the lack of attachment between religion and state keeps its Muslim countries in the stone age no different than not too long ago teh Catholic Church's stranglehold on so many countries governments, kep them down and out and still do in Latin America and parts of Europe and parts of the Philippines

I believe if there is to be any evolution to peace, Muslim extremism which has a stranglehold and monopoly on Muslim governments worldwide must be disconected just as we underwent the same evolution in the West including whether you believe it or not Israel which gives Muslims in its country all the rights non Muslims do not have in the Muslim world in their states.

Democracy and stability can't come about without building traditions, and legal systems that implement and enforce laws independent of the state government.

You asked I answered.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Rue

[kactus]

On 20/10/2016 at 5:21 PM, Rue said:

Yes and clearly the tactics of the Russians, Iranians and Chinese vis a vis Syria hasn't worked and clearly the financing of Muslim terrorists by both Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iran has not worked.

You selectively only criticize the US or Israel in your posts and that's why I made the comment I did. Syria and Russia and out lied denying they were bombing Aleppo yet this week called for a ceasefire to their air bombings? Why if they are not bombing?

You asked what I suggest. I don't think suprising to you I am goingt o be in disagreement with you. I think ideally all foreign air forces and the Syrian air force should immediately agree to get out of the air and leave all of Syria an air free space except for humanitarian flights from the UN or Red Cross, etc.

Then I believe all forces in all regions of Syria need to call for a cease fire. easier said than done because right now Syria is split into thousands of tiny zones, each with their own leader and militia. Its anarchy, a failed state no different than Somalia with a breakdown of central administration of any kind.

In such circumstances a true cease fire is going to be impossible unless an international peace force comes in. That would take many months of planning and require require genunely neutral countries to step up, i.e., probably South Korea, Japan, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, countries not perceived to be pro or anti Syria. To coordinate them coming in on  the ground to rebuild roads, water systems, shelter tent zones for displaced civilians, hospitals, etc., will take years and no it won't happen unless Assad voluntarily steps down and a UN administrator takes over pending some kind of process to appoint a new interim leader as elections are not possible for now.

We both agree that is the only realistic way surely. Putin in as much said in the long term its realistic to understand Assad has to go but he and China don't want a puppet in power that impacts on the oil flowing through Syria to both Iran and China. Also keep in mind as we speak, 95% of oil from Iraq today goes to China and Russia no one else strange as that may sound.

Russia and China are in this no different than the US and everyone else to protect their oil supply lines.

Whether you or I like it its going to come down to the oil meganationals and how they divide it all up. That is what is going on now. China, Russia and Iran are all taking advantage of a US leadership vacuum created by Obama, to move in and secure boldy on the ground their stakes in the oil. They did not do that in the Bush days or in the Reagan or even Clinton years. 

No one saw Obama pulling the US off centre stage particularly in the Middle East. No one predicted China would set up a naval port down the street from the US naval port in Djibouti at one quarter the rent and five times the size.

No one predicted Putin would physically come in on the ground or in the air in Syria until the Ukraine fell and the US sat back.

The hegemony, the fight for securing control zones across the world took a new shape in the Middle East without the US being the no.1 mediator.

That's what happened.

Its not an accicdent Hilary Clinton's sudden new desire to flex muscle and put Russia and China in its place has arisen. She's courting Republican votes for her foreign policy given what a complete lunatic Trump is.

Hilary Clinton I think is going to model herself on Margaret Thatcher not Mrs. Merkel on foreign policy. She sounds like Merkel talking about imigration but when she switches to foreign policy, hey the Iron Lady comes out.

I do think she can handle Putin I do think a stronger US presence to reunite the West and balance Russia and China in all their meddlings in the Middle East is needed.

What you won't aclnowledge is that Muslim terrorism which fuels Palestinian terrorism as well is not simply a result of reacting to Israel or the US. Muslim civil war has continued since Islam developed into a society that did not and does not divide religion from state. Its always been there. The Russians, Chinese, Americans, existence of Israel, give it nw pretenses to flare up but its always been there.

I argue corruption and failure to build democratic institutions and traditions in the Muslim Middle East because of the lack of attachment between religion and state keeps its Muslim countries in the stone age no different than not too long ago teh Catholic Church's stranglehold on so many countries governments, kep them down and out and still do in Latin America and parts of Europe and parts of the Philippines

I believe if there is to be any evolution to peace, Muslim extremism which has a stranglehold and monopoly on Muslim governments worldwide must be disconected just as we underwent the same evolution in the West including whether you believe it or not Israel which gives Muslims in its country all the rights non Muslims do not have in the Muslim world in their states.

Democracy and stability can't come about without building traditions, and legal systems that implement and enforce laws independent of the state government.

You asked I answered.

The whole situation in Aleppo is orchestrated by the West. There's nothing new about this...as I already explained Syria is a key country interms of its strategic location and the interests of the world powers. This is indeed a dangerous game being played by the Russians, the US and Chinese...

Spare me the humanitarian cause ...The US alone ordinarily wouldn't give a hoot about the plight of the Syrian people. It is all staged.... All the US is interested is the supply of oil from that region. With Hilary's nomination for presidency fairly imminent it will be the same old same old policies. Ideally, it would be best for the US to get the f~@k out of that region but we know very well that is unlikely....   

[GostHacked]

On 10/20/2016 at 0:21 PM, Rue said:

Yes and clearly the tactics of the Russians, Iranians and Chinese vis a vis Syria hasn't worked and clearly the financing of Muslim terrorists by both Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iran has not worked.

And from Saudi Arabia we have other major players like the USA supporting their terrorist efforts. Even Canada loves them and is selling Saudi Arabia a few billion worth of military gear.

It's not going to get better. BOTH sides are to blame.

[DogOnPorch]

Pro Tip: The US exports oil.