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Ottawa man beaten to death by police


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I don't hear any yet.

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Some of my friends have children who are law enforcement officers. I know them all and I respect them all. They are not only good people but dedicated to their jobs. I believe that the vast majority are good people, dedicated and respected by most of the community.

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For a start police need to be trained and upgrade their skills so they can also act as mental health first responders.

Perhaps if they're trained by actual doctors a bit of Hippocrates approach will seep in.

They have to first know that they are dealing with someone with mental health conditions.

That isn't really an easy task, and most officers aren't capable of that.

I think one real issue with their training is the concept that failure to follow their verbal commands, or any movement to resist justifies escalation to brutal force or shooting.

There's far too much reliance on that.

It may work with experienced criminals who know the routine and comply when they know they're caught.

But those protocols need to change to de-escalation.

A good dose of 'Do no harm' in policing would be a very good thing.

Giving out 'justice'/punishment is for the courts, not the police.

I think police administering 'street justice' to criminals has become popularized (by TV?) and unfortunately, accepted, commonplace and overlooked by colleagues, superiors ... and the public.

But it never was policy, it never was right, and it's become rampant and out of control.

People in distress with limited mental resources are not going to behave like experienced criminals, may not respond rationally.

That's the moment in time that police training and past practice addresses very poorly.

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Edited by jacee
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For a start police need to be trained and upgrade their skills so they can also act as mental health first responders.

Perhaps if they're trained by actual doctors a bit of Hippocrates approach will seep in.

One model response approach for officers responding to incidents involving persons with mental illness I think has merit was discussed in a recent media report.

There have been a number of initiatives to help police respond to PMI. One initiative involves the use of Mobile Crisis Intervention Teams where trained mental health professionals “ride along” with officers and respond to calls involving PMI. Although this initiative shows great potential, the lack of available professionals and the feasibility of responding to a high demand of calls are significant limitations on the initiative.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/laming-and-zannella-police-must-change-their-response-to-those-with-mental-illness

The Ottawa Police could test this model as a pilot project to evaluate its effectiveness. They could then make recommendations to improve it, such as bolstering resources that are lacking, such as mental health care professionals.

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One model response approach for officers responding to incidents involving persons with mental illness I think has merit was discussed in a recent media report.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/laming-and-zannella-police-must-change-their-response-to-those-with-mental-illness

The Ottawa Police could test this model as a pilot project to evaluate its effectiveness. They could then make recommendations to improve it, such as bolstering resources that are lacking, such as mental health care professionals.

When the 911 caller identifies it as a mental health crisis, and there is time to get that team together, that may work.

But callers - the public - are not necessarily qualified to identify a mental health condition, and time doesn't always allow for that.

In this case the 911 was about a man groping women.

But even without identification of Abdi's condition, the brutality of the police response was absolutely outrageous.

The job of the police is to contain and restrain - to keep the peace - not to administer punishment.

Not to beat someone to death once he's in handcuffs because he's writhing in pain.

And certainly not to kneel on his head once he's in handcuffs when he has serious head wounds.

I don't care what his mental condition or crime.

That was outrageous.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that eyeball is onto something (as usual):

The Hippocratic Oath ... "First, Do no harm" could be a good guide for police.

We have become too accepting, as a society, of police punishing people physically for their (alleged) crime.

Punishment never belonged to the police.

We don't pay them to punish people.

We pay them to apprehend people when necessary, to keep the peace.

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Edited by jacee
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They have to first know that they are dealing with someone with mental health conditions.

That isn't always relevant, never mind possible. In this event they were dealing with a man who was groping women, who was physically restrained by witnesses, who broke free and ran away when police arrived, who resisted arrest. Police are authorized and required to use whatever level of force is needed to affect his arrest. If that kills him, well, so be it. Don't resist arrest, and you aren't likely to get beaten and pepper sprayed.

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The more I think about it, the more I realize that eyeball is onto something (as usual):

The Hippocratic Oath ... "First, Do no harm" could be a good guide for police.

A little hard to reconcile when you need to shoot someone in the face.

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A little hard to reconcile when you need to shoot someone in the face.

So If a policeman thinks someone is about to commit a crime, they should kill them? I'm surprised jacee and eyeball came up with that.

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So If a policeman thinks someone is about to commit a crime, they should kill them? I'm surprised jacee and eyeball came up with that.

It would depend on the crime since there is a small difference in degree after all. It goes from stealing a pack of gum from the convenience store all the way to mass murder and every vile crime in between. Using deadly force to prevent some crimes is acceptable, while using deadly force to prevent others should never be acceptable.

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Looking at this photo, the suspect's hands were cuffed at some point in the arrest/detention. If the officers are still on duty with pay, then their escalated force must not be considered severe enough to suspend them with pay pending the SIU investigation.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mentally-disabled-somali-canadian-dies-violent-arrest-article-1.2726435

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It would depend on the crime since there is a small difference in degree after all. It goes from stealing a pack of gum from the convenience store all the way to mass murder and every vile crime in between. Using deadly force to prevent some crimes is acceptable, while using deadly force to prevent others should never be acceptable.

Untrue. You are allowed to use WHATEVER amount of force is required to arrest a suspect even if it's for unpaid parking tickets. His act of resistance is what escalates and justifies the level of force used. That includes the use of deadly force, if necessary.

Edited by Argus
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Looking at this photo, the suspect's hands were cuffed at some point in the arrest/detention. If the officers are still on duty with pay, then their escalated force must not be considered severe enough to suspend them with pay pending the SIU investigation.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mentally-disabled-somali-canadian-dies-violent-arrest-article-1.2726435

But the photo doesn't show them doing anything other than checking on him. In fact, it's a still from a video where they're rolling him over to do just that.

No video taken yet shows the struggle before they got the cuffs on him, or why they had to use pepper spray. I find the liberal narrative that they just pepper sprayed him because, well, it's fun, and then beat him for more fun, while a crowd of people looks on, to be unconvincing.

But your cite shows just how desperately eager the media are to continue the 'war against blacks' meme given the Daily News has to reach all the way to Canada to cover a routine police confrontation in a city most New Yorkers have probably never even heard of.

Edited by Argus
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Untrue. You are allowed to use WHATEVER amount of force is required to arrest a suspect even if it's for unpaid parking tickets. His act of resistance is what escalates and justifies the level of force used. That includes the use of deadly force, if necessary.

Pulling out a pistol and shooting someone because you think they MIGHT be committing a crime is acceptable? Read the post I was answering to and then join the discussion.

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Pulling out a pistol and shooting someone because you think they MIGHT be committing a crime is acceptable? Read the post I was answering to and then join the discussion.

That post was responding to one of mine, and I found it a little odd, since no one is suggesting shooting people on mere suspicion. Nevertheless, the point remains that police are authorized to use whatever force is needed to do their work, including deadly force. Suggesting that they should take up the Hippocratic oath of 'do no harm' is silly given it's their job to sometimes inflict deliberate harm on dangerous people.

Edited by Argus
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But the photo doesn't show them doing anything other than checking on him. In fact, it's a still from a video where they're rolling him over to do just that.

One media report said that it is common first aid procedure to place a person in medical distress on their side to ensure the airways are clear. One witness reported an officer held Abdi's head down to the pavement with their knee. Nowhere in the videos disclosed so far do I see that.

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It would depend on the crime since there is a small difference in degree after all. It goes from stealing a pack of gum from the convenience store all the way to mass murder and every vile crime in between. Using deadly force to prevent some crimes is acceptable, while using deadly force to prevent others should never be acceptable.

Yeah, but I'm talking about the do no harm provision. Sometimes more harm can come from leaving someone alive than killing them. Look ar drones, for example. If it is applied to the police, do we take thier word that they were acting in our best interests? Should they get malpractice insurance?

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Police are authorized and required to use whatever level of force is needed to affect his arrest. If that kills him, well, so be it.

The law does not say, "comply or die" anywhere. The law explicitly states "reasonable force." Beating an unarmed man to death is not reasonable, even if he's evading police and even if he was caught in the commission of a crime. We're not living in the Judge Dredd universe.
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Unless this is entirely on film, I doubt the police will be held accountable. They do not even have to give their notes over to the SIU which is suppose to be the criminal investigators and they do not have to speak to the SIU and can have their lawyer write their statement if any to the SIU. The law really needs to be changed, it heavily favors police even when they are clearly and blatantly in the wrong. Prosecutors don't want to prosecute them, judges don't want to convict them, civilians they pick seem to be of a below average intelligence and are much more hesitant to convict them than any other normal case and the SIU doesn't even want to lay charges on them. Even when W5 did an investigation several years back on unjustice police shootings where the stories didn't add up with the forensics, they were never charged. The fact that James Forcillo is the first officer ever actually CONVICTED of something, not even murder from an SIU investigation ever, tells you something is wrong in the current laws very badly. It needs to change. I could accept most police shootings and killings might be justified, but 1 in 30 years, that seems more consistent with a broken system.

Could this be racial, there are alot of people who will make this inference, most people who are accused of what he is accused of don't get executed by police like that in Canada. However there is also the reality that police in Canada abuse force and kill lots of white people unjustly as well. For instance, will the SIU drug test the officer who beat him to death, will he have to take a steroids test or undergo a psychological evaluation to see if this officer has a history of abuse of force or was doped up. I doubt it, and this is the real problem. No accountability for cops who kill people. Cops who kill people should be treated just like anyone else, arrested immediately, presumed guilty until evidence exonerates them.

The witness reports so far seem to suggest this was an unjust murder. However if the legal system is designed to let cops get off with murder as it currently is, it doesn't really matter what the facts are.

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That post was responding to one of mine, and I found it a little odd, since no one is suggesting shooting people on mere suspicion. Nevertheless, the point remains that police are authorized to use whatever force is needed to do their work, including deadly force. Suggesting that they should take up the Hippocratic oath of 'do no harm' is silly given it's their job to sometimes inflict deliberate harm on dangerous people.

Well it has to be proportional, Toronto police can take down a guy with a knife without killing him, so I don't see why arresting an unarmed man who may be evasive should result in death especially when you have several officers there. If that is the case, we need to take away the guns from patrol officers and replace them with shields like in England.

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Well it has to be proportional, Toronto police can take down a guy with a knife without killing him, so I don't see why arresting an unarmed man who may be evasive should result in death especially when you have several officers there. If that is the case, we need to take away the guns from patrol officers and replace them with shields like in England.

England is an island and is not next to the wild west like we are. Taking guns away from police is not an option given how many guns are in private hands, including illegal guns in the hands of criminals. Nor is there any way of keeping illegal guns out of the country, as they are smuggled in daily, often through the native reservations.

As to what killed this guy, I doubt it will turn out to be a beating.

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England is an island and is not next to the wild west like we are. Taking guns away from police is not an option given how many guns are in private hands, including illegal guns in the hands of criminals. Nor is there any way of keeping illegal guns out of the country, as they are smuggled in daily, often through the native reservations.

As to what killed this guy, I doubt it will turn out to be a beating.

An Island is a hell of a lot more difficult to defend, especially when it is connected to the EU and swarming with polish immigrants and baltic criminals who can avoid border patrol all together and just drive a big boat full of guns onto your shores or use helicopter and plane drops of crates full of guns.

Taking away guns from police is going to be the answer because they are not using them in a responsible manner. It is really rare for anyone to shoot a officer in Canada despite widespread availability of guns. There is not really much incentive to shoot a policeman in Canada anyways, there is literally nothing to gain as we do not have a prison system that gives people 20 years for having a car with some drugs in the trunk.

What evidence is there of native gun smuggling and do packages and vehicles heading to native reserves not have to pass through border officials?

The islands like Puerto Rico and Dominican have a way harder time defending their ocean borders from American and Colombian drug /gun smugglers than land border states.

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Abdirahman Abdi: What we know so far about the Ottawa mans death

"It just was not right for the beating that they gave that poor guy when he was down", he said. "I got to the point, I'm 67 years old and if I'd had been 30 years younger, I would have jumped that cop."

The cop who beat him in the head until he was dead.

He was Somali.

He was Black.

He was Muslim.

He had mental health issues.

It was reported that he bothered a woman in a coffee shop.

He left the coffee shop.

He was on his way home.

Police chased him, grabbed him, he resisted.

Police officer beat him in the head until he was dead.

SIU is investigating.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/man-in-critical-condition-siu-investigating-after-witnesses-say-ottawa-police-beat-him-unconscious

Eyewitness Zainab Abdallah said on Sunday that she saw Abdi, pursued by police, run toward the apartment building, and she tried to intervene. She said she pleaded with the officers that Abdi had a mental illness, but she said they didnt stop.

...

Ali said she has known the Abdi family for nearly 20 years and said Abdi was generally a gentle man, never causing any problems in the community.

...

His brother, Abdiaziz Abdi, 27, said Abdi came to Canada from Somalia in 2009 and worked hard at a downtown car wash.

"My brother was kind-hearted. He was helpful and friendly."

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/ottawa/police-officer-in-abdi-death-identified-1.3695996

The two Ottawa police officers under investigation after the death of an Ottawa man following an arrest have been identified as Const. Daniel Montsion and Const. Dave Weir.

...

McGhie said the officer used his baton to strike Abdi in the legs, arms and upper body while shouting at Abdi to comply.

A second officer arrived at the scene in a police cruiser, ran out of the car and jumped into the altercation, delivering what McGhie described as "a number of very heavy blows to the head and face."

...

McGhie on Tuesday said the second officer was wearing a DART vest and, when shown a still from the YouTube video, identified him as Montsion.

'They wanted him dead'

Zeinab Abdallah, an elderly Somali woman who lives in the building, said she was leaving at the same time Abdi and the first officer were running toward it.

Speaking in Somali, she told CBC's Idil Mussa that Abdi called to her, "Sister, protect me from them. Zeinab, help me. Zeinab, help me."

...

Several people inside can be heard wailing and screaming.

A man's voice can be heard identifying himself as the superintendent of the building and saying to police, "This is the family. This is the family."

Another man, speaking in Somali, can also be heard saying "Take mom away, take her out of here. Take mom."

I think the patrol officer was trying to subdue him.

I think the guns-gangs-drugs-DART officer Montsion was trying to kill him.

And he did.

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So, when the cop had him down, was the cop calling him a dirty no good rotten black Somalian muslim, and I am going to kill you? Just give me a reason. As soon as a white cop touches a non-white person, well there has to be racism involved somewhere in there. As usual, a typical politically correct liberal response. It seems that a white cop just should not man handle any non-white anymore for fear of being accused of being a racist.

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