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Canada: The land of mediocrity


Argus

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It's a bit more complex than simple supply and demand when it comes to professions, often it's about the nature of what you're doing.

Ah no. It is supply and demand. Nothing more. Government unions distort supply and demand because governments that overpay their workers don't go bankrupt like a private company. If CPA's did not deliver value to their clients that was greater than their fees they would have to be paid less or their firms would go under.

It's anything but easy. They earn every penny.

Its not easy being a garbage man or a waitress but anyone able to walk can do the job with minimal training. That means there is a large supply. Currently there are more trained teachers than there are jobs which implies the wages should drop to match supply with demand. Edited by TimG
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Ah no. It is supply and demand. Nothing more. Government unions distort supply and demand because governments that overpay their workers don't go bankrupt like a private company. If CPA's did not deliver value to their clients that was greater than their fees they would have to be paid less or their firms would go under. Its not easy being a garbage man or a waitress but anyone able to walk can do the job with minimal training. That means there is a large supply. Currently there are more trained teachers than there are jobs which implies the wages should drop to match supply with demand.

Teachers bring less value than a CPA are you for real? They're educating the generation who will take care of you when you're old. How is that any less valuable than a CPA?

Supply and Deman dictate *price*. Simple as that, that's why a tradesman makes 40/hr easy. Same thing as a teacher. They bring a lot of value to the table whether or not you can see it.

Edited by BC_chick
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Teachers bring more value than a CPA are you for real? They're educating the generation who will take care of you when you're old. How is that any less valuable than a CPA?

Value is determined by wage levels paid by private sector corporations. Not by any subjective judgement you may have.

If teachers were worth what the government pays them then teachers in the private sector would be paid the same. They aren't. Therefore the government is overpaying teachers.

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Value is determined by wage levels paid by private sector corporations. Not by any subjective judgement you may have.If teachers were worth what the government pays them then teachers in the private sector would be paid the same. They aren't. Therefore the government is overpaying teachers.

You still can't explain physical labour in your supply and demand argument. Why is pay so high when there are so many labourers out there?

Why are lawyers and doctors so much better compensated than everyone else? Nurses? Sex trade workers?

Seriously, nature of the work you do matters and teachers are doing a more strenuous job than most sectors.

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You still can't explain physical labour in your supply and demand argument. Why is pay so high when there are so many labourers out there?

Because the supply is a function of two things: the number of people able to do the job and the number of people willing to do the job. TFW are imported into Canada because there is no supply of local workers willing to do the job at the wages offered. Supply and demand dictates that the employer needs to raise wages to the point where supply meets demand. Government should not short circuit the free market by artificially increasing supply.

Why are lawyers and doctors so much better compensated than everyone else?

Doctors and Lawyers are examples of cartels granted control over essential services that limit the supply of workers by demanding difficult to acquire credentials for tasks that don't necessarily need those credentials. Cartels are generally bad for customers and governments should always work to keep the scope of cartels limited to the minimum necessary to protect consumers. Edited by TimG
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TimG, they make a whopping 70K/year on average. Ooooh, such atrocious 'overpay'.

Consider Christmas and Spring break as the equivalent of a company with four weeks vacation (there are many) and adjust pay based on 9 weeks off in the summer. That's $40/hr.

Not all that different than many other private sector jobs that require 4 years plus 1 -2 years vocational training.

According to google the average teacher salaries in Ontario are $82k for elementary teachers and $87k for high school teachers. You've left out that teachers need to meet no ongoing standards of success or ability and can't be fired except for obvious, ongoing gross incompetence. You've also left out all the days off they get, including most of the summer.

Also that the educational requirement is unnecessary, and mostly put in place to justify the large salary. You don't need a university degree to teach basic reading, writing or arithmetic to nine year olds.

Edited by Argus
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According to google the average teacher salaries in Ontario are $82k for elementary teachers and $87k for high school teachers. You've left out that teachers need to meet no ongoing standards of success or ability and can't be fired except for obvious, ongoing gross incompetence. You've also left out all the days off they get, including most of the summer.

Also that the educational requirement is unnecessary, and mostly put in place to justify the large salary. You don't need a university degree to teach basic reading, writing or arithmetic to nine year olds.

I did calculate the 9 weeks off in the summer (in the very post you quoted). Still comes out to 40/hr and I find that very reasonable pay for a teacher with 5+ years of higher education.

Regarding not needing a degree, you need a university degree to teach lower levels in the same way a bachelor degree is not enough to teach university. It's a pretty novel concept, actually.

I wonder why you spend so much energy on teachers and poor people and never have I heard you make a peep about the CEO's who make by lunch hour what a teacher makes for a whole year.

Edited by BC_chick
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You got a link to back up that claim?

I compared the pay of a teacher to a skilled labourer because they are equivalent. I also compared to the pay of a CPA who earns a lot higher with the same amount of education.

Teachers are cited in some "top-ten" stressful jobs but none mention skilled labourer or CPA, so in the jobs I compared teaching to, yes it is the most stressful.

Could you spend your day surrounded by little people with virtually no logic? Only to be evaluated by how well they do? And have their parents having high expectations of you?

It may not be as stressful as a fireman but it's higher than either of the jobs I mentioned.

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Because the supply is a function of two things: the number of people able to do the job and the number of people willing to do the job. TFW are imported into Canada because there is no supply of local workers willing to do the job at the wages offered. Supply and demand dictates that the employer needs to raise wages to the point where supply meets demand. Government should not short circuit the free market by artificially increasing supply. Doctors and Lawyers are examples of cartels granted control over essential services that limit the supply of workers by demanding difficult to acquire credentials for tasks that don't necessarily need those credentials. Cartels are generally bad for customers and governments should always work to keep the scope of cartels limited to the minimum necessary to protect consumers.

Artificial increase in supply LOWERS price, TimG, not raises it. Your theory wouldn't explain anything about 'overpaying' teachers and also, if true, why are we paying so much for skilled labour if we are 'artificially' increasing supply through TFW??

As for the rest, no, it's not about cartels. It's about jobs being offered wages based on education and the level of what the work entails. Doctors do the work that very few people can handle doing and lawyers speak a language that few understand. Both are highly skilled. They're compensated accordingly. Teachers have to put up with a bunch of little people who seem to run on a different parallel than adults. It's tough work, I bet you wouldn't last a day running a grade four class. They're compensated accordingly.

I asked Argus this too, maybe you can enlighten me. In your law of supply and demand and artificial prices, how to you explain the obscene amount of money CEO's make and come here and with a straight face say teachers and doctors make too much money. Honestly, I'm curious.

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Artificial increase in supply LOWERS price, TimG, not raises it.

It is lowering the price. The companies can't find workers at the wages they are willing to pay so the market wages are much higher than what they would wish. The increase in supply via TFW lowers the market price for the job.

Your theory wouldn't explain anything about 'overpaying' teachers

I am comparing apples to apples: i.e. how much does a private school pay for teachers. Same job therefore competing for the same supply of workers. The wages at private schools are lower which means teachers are overpaid given the market conditions.

why are we paying so much for skilled labour if we are 'artificially' increasing supply through TFW??

TFWs are still limited but they DO lower the wages for Canadians that compete for the same jobs.

It's about jobs being offered wages based on education and the level of what the work entails.

Nonsense. In the private sector. Pay is based on one thing and one thing only: supply and demand. That is why a PhD in English lit gets paid much less than a welder despite the fact that the PhD has more education. That also why credentials are absolutely irrelevent when it comes to determining what is fair pay for a job.

Doctors do the work that very few people can handle doing

Nurse practitioners could do a lot of the work GPs do for less but are prohibited from doing so by the Doctor cartel. This has the effect of increasing the demand for doctors which also raises the price.

In your law of supply and demand and artificial prices, how to you explain the obscene amount of money CEO's make and come here and with a straight face say teachers and doctors make too much money. Honestly, I'm curious.

Any company could find someone who would try to do a CEO job for fraction of what they current pay CEOs

(lots of middle managers out there that would happy with a large pay bump).

So the question is why don't the boards of large companies go out and hire cheap middle managers to fill the CEO roles?

Perhaps it is because they are afraid they will make a mess of it.

CEOs get paid a lot because there are few people with background that would make boards comfortable risking a billion dollar company.

This means small supply.

CEOs are like professional athletes because the people paying them are less willing to accept second best so they can save some money.

In any case, your question simply repeats the fallacy that you can't seem to let go of: fair pay for jobs is not determined by the skills required, the difficulty of the job or any other subjective criteria you invent. Fair pay is determined by the demand for vs. the supply of workers.

Edited by TimG
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I compared the pay of a teacher to a skilled labourer because they are equivalent. I also compared to the pay of a CPA who earns a lot higher with the same amount of education.

Teachers are cited in some "top-ten" stressful jobs but none mention skilled labourer or CPA, so in the jobs I compared teaching to, yes it is the most stressful.

Could you spend your day surrounded by little people with virtually no logic? Only to be evaluated by how well they do? And have their parents having high expectations of you?

It may not be as stressful as a fireman but it's higher than either of the jobs I mentioned.

So no link, just your opinion. Got it.

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The top performing students are all in the far east where teachers are not paid very well. Canada and Netherlands are in the top 5 of the westerns nations and we pay our teachers well, however, Estonia is first and they're paid quite low.

There is absolutely no correlation between teacher pay and student performance.

Paying our teachers and fire-fighters well is about keeping the middle-class alive, a concept that seems to escape you Argus. We need a middle-class.

Did you or Argus post a link to these test results you're referring to?

.

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Pay is based on one thing and one thing only: supply and demand. That is why a PhD in English lit gets paid much less than a welder despite the fact that the PhD has more education. That also why credentials are absolutely irrelevent when it comes to determining what is fair pay for a job. Nurse practitioners could do a lot of the work GPs do for less but are prohibited from doing so by the Doctor cartel. This has the effect of increasing the demand for doctors which also raises the price. Any company could find someone who would try to do a CEO job for fraction of what they current pay CEOs(lots of middle managers out there that would happy with a large pay bump).So the question is why don't the boards of large companies go out and hire cheap middle managers to fill the CEO roles?Perhaps it is because they are afraid they will make a mess of it.CEOs get paid a lot because there are few people with background that would make boards comfortable risking a billion dollar company.This means small supply.CEOs are like professional athletes because the people paying them are less willing to accept second best so they can save some money.In any case, your question simply repeats the fallacy that you can't seem to let go of: fair pay for jobs is not determined by the skills required, the difficulty of the job or any other subjective criteria you invent. Fair pay is determined by the demand for vs. the supply of workers.

So it's *all* about supply and demand except for CEO's, and athletes and celebrities and doctors and lawyers and anyone else TimG wants to add to the list of exceptions.

No TimG, a lot more plays into it and the nature of the job does play a role in pay scale.

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So it's *all* about supply and demand except for CEO's

Can you read? It is not very constructive to post responses that demonstrate that you did not read or understand the argument presented.

What said is supply and demand determines the salaries for ALL jobs.

I said that doctors cartels artificially reduce the supply which has the effect of increasing their pay.

The pay they get is still fair given the rules. I only question the rules that allow the cartel.

I said CEOs get paid a lot because the supply of people that boards are willing to hand over control of a large company to is very small.

Small supply means large salaries.

There are no exceptions to the laws of supply and demand in the private sector but some groups can use government laws to manipulate the supply (TFWs, doctors, et. al.)

However, public sector unions bypass the laws of supply and demand because governments do not face bankruptcy if the pay to much.

But overpaying public servants is not without cost.

By overpaying teachers the government hires fewer teachers.

This means large class sizes and school closures.

So overpaying teachers is not good for kids.

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Why cut my sentence halfway? Why not all the other TimG 'exceptions'? Fact is, you contradict yourself when in one post you talk about supply and demand dictating price and in another you mentioned all the industry standards where external factors affect supply and demand.

Are teachers the only professions with industry standards? No, why single them out? If they really are 'overpaid' (I strongly disagree with that but for argument's sake), why do we place so much emphasis on them and not CEO's?

My point is - you seem to be irrationally focussed on group of people and not the others.

Edited by BC_chick
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Fact is, you contradict yourself when in one post you talk about supply and demand dictating price and in another you mentioned all the industry standards where external factors affect supply and demand.

There is no contradiction. You just can't seem to grasp that many factors affect the supply for any given job. Those are not 'exceptions'. They are simply statements of fact which I offered because you brought up different professions.

No, why single them out?

Because they are overpaid compared to private sector teachers doing the same job. That makes them overpaid. IT makes no difference what doctors or CEOs or any other group that you imagine. The only valid comparison is how much teachers would get if they quit their government job and worked for an organization that would go under if they over payed their workers. And they are overpaid when you compare apples to apples. Edited by TimG
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There is no contradiction. You just can't seem to grasp that many factors affect the supply for any given job. Those are not 'exceptions'. They are simply statements of fact which I offered because you brought up different professions. Because they are overpaid compared to private sector teachers doing the same job. That makes them overpaid. IT makes no difference what doctors or CEOs or any other group that you imagine. The only valid comparison is how much teachers would get if they quit their government job and worked for an organization that would go under if they over payed their workers. And they are overpaid when you compare apples to apples.

Oh wow, in the very post you quoted I discussed external factors that affect supply and demand how can you say I don't seem to grasp the factors.... when that's exactly what I said!

The rest of it pertains to exactly that, it's not just supply and demand in this world that affect professions. Not just teachers but many other professions.

Teachers are no exception so stop bringing supply and demand into it. That's my point exactly.

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Teachers are no exception so stop bringing supply and demand into it. That's my point exactly.

No it is not. CEO get paid a lot because there is a small supply. No exception. Fact of life.

There is a large supply of teachers to fill the available positions.

That means they should be paid less.

No exceptions. Fact of life.

Supply and demand. No nonsense about qualifications or how hard or "valuable" the work is.

Nothing else should affect salaries.

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According to google the average teacher salaries in Ontario are $82k for elementary teachers and $87k for high school teachers. You've left out that teachers need to meet no ongoing standards of success or ability and can't be fired except for obvious, ongoing gross incompetence. You've also left out all the days off they get, including most of the summer.

Also that the educational requirement is unnecessary, and mostly put in place to justify the large salary. You don't need a university degree to teach basic reading, writing or arithmetic to nine year olds.

I can see you have no idea of the complexity of teaching and learning.

I would LOVE to see you just get through one day in a classroom of 9 year olds ... let alone actually teach them anything! Lol

Can you at least provide a link to your salary data?

It sounds fishy:

In Toronto, elementary teachers currently begin their careers earning $42,283 to $55,404, up to a maximum of $94,707 after 10 years.

https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2015/11/25/canadian-teachers-among-top-paid-worldwide-study-finds.html

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http://www.salary.com/the-top-10-most-stressful-jobs/slide/2/

Now you show me labourer or CPA on any list.

That's your link? An article by some journalist from New England that writes articles like "5 Things Kindergarten Teaches You About Asking For A Raise".

Here's one from Canada....teachers not even in top 10.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/09/13/most-stressful-jobs-canada_n_3915414.html

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You refuted nothing I said because I never made the argument that it's one of the most stressful jobs - I said it's more stressful than *similar jobs*.

I specifically said I've seen them on some lists whereas I've never seen the jobs to which I compared them on any lists (labourers who have a similar pay scale, or CPA's who make a lot more with the same education).

You show me any link showing accountants or labourers in the top 10 and you have an argument.

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