Israeli War Crimes - Part 2

[Hudson Jones]

Well then if the above is true, then your moral double standard which assumes Israel is supposed to be a Liberal democracy like the US and Canada unlike Arab countries which you claim gives you the right to engage in your double standard does not apply.

I have no double standards. The point here is that Israel is not like Canada. The hypernationalism and the racist behaviour by many in Israel is something majority of Canadians would not engage in. The treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government and the acceptance by the majority of Israelis is despicable and it's something that would not happen in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

I have no double standards. The point here is that Israel is not like Canada. The hypernationalism and the racist behaviour by many in Israel is something majority of Canadians would not engage in. The treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government and the acceptance by the majority of Israelis is despicable and it's something that would not happen in Canada.

But it already happened in Canada (and the United States), and is still happening. Labeling Israel's actions "war crimes" will not change the past or the present in North America.

[Rue]

I have no double standards. The point here is that Israel is not like Canada. The hypernationalism and the racist behaviour by many in Israel is something majority of Canadians would not engage in. The treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government and the acceptance by the majority of Israelis is despicable and it's something that would not happen in Canada.

It would be my contention when you respond with words such as the above, you make it clear you are not Canadian. If you were, you would never make such comments knowing what the history of Canada is and how Canada came about.

Regards

Montgommery Watson Hodgkins Spencer-Stuart-Smith Finkleberg Muhammed Jr.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

I have no double standards.

Sure.

You have come on this board many times and stated you held Israel to a double standard when compared to the Arab League of Nations, Muslim terrorists and extremists, China and Russia, because Israel is a liberal democracy and like Canada and the US has to be held to a different moral standard reserved tor liberal democracies as compared to the others.

Now you do the Michael Jackson back step saying um uh um uh wait Israel is different than Canada so I can judge them differently.

Lol. So Go on finish your ridioculous role playing as Moral Judge of Dah Jooz., Provide the moral standard you use for Israel and do explain why you don't use that standard on anyone else.

Lol.. What's even funnier then your contradictions and flipping and flopping trying to justify your selective discrimination against Israel is you have no moral standard. None. Zero. Da Nada. Butkus.

What you do have is pretense. All you can demonstrate is subjective bias, i.e., name calling.

That name calling is not based on morality, simply your arbitrary subjective bias you can't even enunciate.

Go on what moral standards...

What a joke, you playing the role of someone who claims to be in the position to morally Judge evil Jews and

you can't even provide a moral standard let alone the criteria for why you only use it against Israel.

Morally judge my Jewish buttox will you. Lol. Got news for you, if you think yours smells any better

let's bring a proctologist in to explain moral relativity to you if you can't handle Bush Chaney's advisory to you.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

Israel war crimes indeed, Has anyone seen Ghost, Big Guy, Dre, MarcusKactusBigGuyHudsonJones Eye, commence thread on Syrian war crimes or Iran war crimes or Muslim terrorist war crimes? Uh yah.

You think they will acknowledge Syria’s civil war has claimed over 470,000 lives since it started in March 2011 according to the the Syrian Centre for Policy Research announced in Februar of 2016.

Now that's interesting because a favourite tactic of the anti Israelis on this board is to say more Palestinians have died than Israelis and so this makes Israel the bad guy. Interesting how the numbers will be used to uphold double standard.

Yet the math is very selective. See these anti Israelis won' acknowledge that with over 470,000 Syrians killed that works out to an average of about 262deaths per day and 7,860 per month. Considering the war continues as we speak at 200 civilians killed a day we are well over after the February est 520,000 dead, not a damn peep from The Moral Judge of Israel, Hudson Jones. Not a peep from Big Guy or Ghost.

Heard any of these moral judges of Israel ever mention the Russia began blitz-bombing Syria in support of the Assad regime?

Hey ask the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) . They estimate that nine months of Russian airstrikes have killed 3,089 civilians — a toll that is greater, by some estimates, than the number of civilians killed by ISIS.

Hear any comments on this board?

Have any of these moral judges pointed out that the Assad regime has killed 109,347 civilians between March 2011 and July 2014 (88 percent of the total casualties at the time), according to estimates by the Syrian Network for Human Rights and that works out to about 91 civilian deaths per day?

Hear any of them comment that the SOHR has documented 9,307 civilian deaths from 35,775 regime airstrikes over a 20-month period running from November 2014 through June 2016 which amounts to 1 Syrian killed every hour, during the 20 months that the SOHR documented civilian casualties caused by Russian and Syrian airstrikes?

Now does Hudson Jones have any moral standard that compares those figures to the number of innocent Palestinians killed by Israel from 2011 to 2014?

He sure as hell has never stated his moral standard.

Further, cccording to Human Rights Watch (HRW), which is no friend of Israel, 37 Palestinians were killed in 2011, 103 in 2012, 15 in 2013 and 1,500 in 2014 – the year when Hamas fired rockets at Israel from highly populated Gazan areas for a 4year total of 1,655.

Hey do the math.During the same four-year period, the number of Syrian civilian deaths was about 76 times greater than the HRW total of Palestinian civilian casualties.

So, do you think Hudson Jones et al have a moral standard that compares these?

Of course not.

They call out for a boycott of Israel but not a peep about Russia. Why?

Listen to Bug Guy drone on and on about how Iran is the key to mid east peace and Canada must embrace them. Uh you know, Iran, country of moral righteousness. Who Iran responsible for financing the Syrian civil war?

You hear anyone calling for a boycott of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Sudan?

Y'all hear anyone mention the genocide going on in Sudan or the Muslim extremist terrorist wars raging in Nigeria, Malawi, Chad, Niger, Senegal, Dahomey, Mali, Central African Republic? Anyone one hear from them about the attacks in Tunisia, France, Germany?

Just the other week we saw a film of a bombing in Alleppo and a young 5 year old boy in shock, Omran Daqneesh placed in an ambulance?

Did they start a thread? You bet you would have read if it was aPalestinian boy hurt by an Israeli airstrike on Gaza the usual piss on Israel comments on this thread.

The math is simple. From its 2006 inception through August 2015, United Nations Human Rights Council condemned Israel 62 times but Syria only, 17, Iran 5 and wait for it ZERO for Russia.

During the last 4 years in Syria as war rages there were five times as many resolutions issued by the UN condemning Israel as those rebuking the rest of the world.

Look at the double standard:

2012: 22 against Israel, 4 for the rest of the world

2013: 22 against Israel, 4 for the rest of the world

2014: 20 against Israel, 3 for the rest of the world

2015: 20 against Israel, 3 for the rest of the world

Double standard? Hum huh what?

I appropriated the above info 99% from: http://www.algemeiner.com/2016/08/24/anti-israel-double-standards-enable-assads-brutality/

The article was written by, Noah Beck in the Algemeiner.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

One of the reasons the anti Israelis can not provide a moral code or standard of behaviour they hold Israel to is because

if they did, its absurdity would be blatantly revealed.

In fact some say people like "Hudson Jones" have moved not to just holding Israel to a double standard but an impossible one. as enunciated by Steve Apfel at http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4568/an_impossible_standard_anti_semitic_wolves_and_israel

"The double standard is dead; long live the impossible standard.

Acting the part of a stand-alone identikit, the impossible standard renders many fashonable definitions of anti-Semitism redundant. Five arguable criteria never stymied one demonizer of Israel that I know of. The chattering class anti-Semites can be clever and irritating. The more complete your system to bag them the more slippery and dismissive they get. But no one slips past the impossible standard.

Anti-Jews, from your blood-thirsty Jihadist at one end to your oh-very civil chattering class at the other, demand that Israel conducts itself according to a bizarre, not to say infantile, code of war.

If they allow Israel to retaliate at all when attacked, anti-Jews insist that it operates under iron fast conditions. The Israeli military may not kill the enemy, injure the enemy, or damage property belonging to the enemy. If one or all of the above happens, Israel-haters blow the whistle and cries of ‘disproportionate!’ and ‘war crimes!’ rent the world.

Needless to say the demand for waging war safely so that that no one gets hurt and nothing gets damaged applies only to Israel. That’s one red light.

A second red light is that concern for Palestinian lives is demonstrably not behind the demand to wage war safely. Assad the butcher of Syria starved hundreds of Palestinians to death in a refugee camp, evoking not a peep from Israel-haters.

Here were the same Palestinian people that Israeli operations are forbidden to harm, but that Syria may starve to death with impunity. Note, motives are being withdrawn, not double standards raised. By removing one all-powerful motive, the impossible standard cuts off the anti-Semite scuttling for cover behind human rights.

That word ‘disproportionate’ sets off another red light; ticks a third box. The Israel-hater relies on it heavily, never stopping to explain how and why Israeli operations are disproportionate. And that includes professors of international humanitarian law (IHL).

Some, like erstwhile members of the Goldstone Commission, don’t even wait for the evidence; overwhelmed by their impulse to demonize the Jews.

“Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not self-defense - it’s a war crime. The rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas deplorable as they are do not, in terms of scale and effect amount to an armed attack entitling Israel to rely on self-defense…Israel’s (disproportionate) actions amount to aggression, not self-defense.”

....

No – there is no objective yardstick for Israel to meet. There is only the impossible standard: for the anti-Semite a single Palestinian victim of the Jews is a victim too many. An Israeli attack is simply an attack...

But the devil in all this detail lurks where? So what if people falsely and maliciously convict Israel? How does that prove Jew hatred beyond a reasonable doubt?

....

Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote in the wake of the escapade of the Free Gaza Flotilla:

“But if none of these (Israeli military tactics) is permissible, what's left? Ah, but that's the point… What's left? Nothing. The whole point …is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. ..The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, six million - that number again - hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists - Iranian in particular - openly prepare a more final solution.”

The impossible standard: imposed to thwart the capacity of Jews to stop their would-be killers. Who could dismiss the argument that if someone wants Jews to die, there’s no question: he has to be anti-Semitic. If the wall of the Jews in Bethlehem prevents Jewish death, and London churchgoers object to that wall, they have to be anti-Semites."

So who is Hudson Jones kidding. Uh yah he holds Israel to a moral standard. Right.

[jbg]

Nothing about being a liberal democracy says you have stop defending yourself from violence (with appropriate, proportionate force). Throwing people in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib torture hells and ripping off women's burkinis isn't suicide, and also isn't what a liberal democracy is about. It's about following basic human rights and the rule of law.

I haven’t educated myself on the burkini issue yet. But Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are a far bit better than ISIS’s cages where people are doused with gasoline and burned alive, or beheaded on the Internet. Putting underwear on someone’s head may be humiliating but it is not barbaric. It was and is a breakdown of military discipline and should be punished.

I'm not saying Israel should be pacifist, I'm saying they should be committed to peace about all else, and defend themselves when absolutely necessary. Same with any other country. They should always be willing to extend an olive branch and act in good faith rather than doing inhumane, illegal things that just pisses off the Arabs even further and makes everything worse and harder to achieve peace. Arabs/Palestinians need to do the same, but someone needs to start, and I don't have much faith it would be the Arab side.

Noble sentiments, in line with your praise of myself and Rue. But if Israel were to make the first move in that manner it might not survive long.

All sides also must be willing to understand each other's narratives, use empathy (different than sympathy), and compromise. You and Rue are good decent people and yet sometimes the way I see both of you talk about the conflict I just shake my head, if good people who don't even live in the region can think like this what are the chances of peace?!

I appreciate the compliment. Rue can speak for himself.

I don’t think that most Arabs are ready to sit down in an encounter session with Jews or Israelis and discuss their inner child.

Instead of just chastising ie: Marcus for his remarks, calling him anti-semite etc., why not reach out your hand?

I at least explain on different thread who I am and in what I believe. Maybe even some personal history. To this day I don’t know if “Marcus” is married, has children, etc. Or even what province he hails from. All I see is diatribes.

[jbg]

A good majority of Israel's territory has been gained via war ("started" by Arabs). 60% of the area pledged to Arabs by the UN was annexed by Israel in 1948, which is illegal. If you don't factor the territory pledged to Israel via the 1947 UN Partition Plan, then somewhere around 90% of Israel's territory, maybe more, has been gained "as a result of wars repeatedly started by Arabs".

The argument that Israel kept the conquered land for purely for security reasons is nonsense. Security sure, but sometimes also for permanent land acquisition….. Personally I think the borders in the region should be redrawn to the 1947 UN Partition Plan. I don't understand why everyone says "pre-1967 borders" instead, other than borders reverting to the 1947 plan is fantasy.

The Arabs forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from their lands post-1948, bringing an end to Jewish communities that existed, in some cases, to the destruction of the First Temple. That created a need for more land. Additionally, the Arabs at that time (and really no time since) have evinced a willingness to accept even 1947 partition borders on a permanent basis.

Then you have the territory gained by illegal settlement building, not sure the excuse there. There irony is that Netanyahu seems to think the state of Palestine has no right to exist, at least not on what he considers historic Israeli land. The other irony is that Israel has gained a good deal of its territory through illegal annexation or occuption, echos of Nazi Germany (though via differing means).

The Arabs had many opportunities to stop the march of Israeli expansion. They have kept a state of war going since 1948. That means, in theory, Israel could keep on expanding endlessly. They won’t because they don’t want any more ruined land or people. But they could and be totally justified. Sue for permanent peace, you get the status quo at the time. Not a mulligan for previously lost wars.

Also when will Russia and Poland reverse their land grab of German land post WW II. Don’t hold your breath.

Edited September 2, 2016 by jbg

[Moonlight Graham]

I haven’t educated myself on the burkini issue yet. But Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are a far bit better than ISIS’s cages where people are doused with gasoline and burned alive, or beheaded on the Internet. Putting underwear on someone’s head may be humiliating but it is not barbaric. It was and is a breakdown of military discipline and should be punished.

Gitmo is barbaric. There's only one main reason why Gitmo is located where it is: so that it's not on US territory, and therefore whatever happens there doesn't apply under US law, nor do the prisoners have any rights under US law.

Noble sentiments, in line with your praise of myself and Rue. But if Israel were to make the first move in that manner it might not survive long.

Extending an olive branch and acting in good faith certainly doesn't mean letting your defenses down, or even ceasing the use of military violence to defend yourself when absolutely necessary.

[herples]

The Arabs forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from their lands post-1948, bringing an end to Jewish communities that existed, in some cases, to the destruction of the First Temple. That created a need for more land. Additionally, the Arabs at that time (and really no time since) have evinced a willingness to accept even 1947 partition borders on a permanent basis.

The Arabs had many opportunities to stop the march of Israeli expansion. They have kept a state of war going since 1948. That means, in theory, Israel could keep on expanding endlessly. They won’t because they don’t want any more ruined land or people. But they could and be totally justified. Sue for permanent peace, you get the status quo at the time. Not a mulligan for previously lost wars.

Also when will Russia and Poland reverse their land grab of German land post WW II. Don’t hold your breath.

The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands is not a very good reason to take more land from Palestinian Arabs. There was a war between Arab states and Israel but not between Palestine or Israel.

Edited September 3, 2016 by herples

[DogOnPorch]

The Palestinian Arabs started the conflict.

[Altai]

Another crime by Israil, a Turkish person who walks with a Turkish flag on his back in stolen Palestinian lands been arrested for 8 hours.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Altai

[Rue]

The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands is not a very good reason to take more land from Palestinian Arabs. There was a war between Arab states and Israel but not between Palestine or Israel.

1-The war(s) involve(s) not just the Arab League but Palestinians. The Mufti of Jerusalem and many other Palestinians back in the 1940's

led their own nationalist movements with terror cells and armed militia.

2. The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands after 1949 caused 900,000 to flee after everything they owned was stolen from them by Arab countries.

750,000 of thsoe 900,000 had to flee to Israel, they had no where else to go. In fact France took in about 125,000 and then the US the rest.

That 750,000 surpassed the number of alleged Palestinians forced to leave pre 1967 Israel. It did make it impossible at that point to discuss

repatriating alleged displaced Palestinians at that point.

That said you also forget what Jordan is. Jordan was illegally created by the British as a Jewish free Palestinian state out of 90% of Palestine.

The mandate they were given by the league of nations was supposed to create one Jewish and one Arab state out of Palestine which was where Jordan, pre 1967 Israel and the West Bank are today.

In fact Churchill's memoirs admit Britain lied to the League of Nations to get its mandate to supervise and administer the creation of two Palestinian states, one Jewish one Arab Muslim. They out and out lied. In fact the day WW2 broke out a League of Nations meeting was called to declare Jordan a violation of the League mandate. The war broke out, the meeting was cancelled and the League disbanded.

After WW2 Jews agreed to a nation in LESS THAN 6% of the original Palestine. 90% of it was already Jordan, a Jew free Palestinian state and 4% was the West Bank,

So this myth that Jews took land from Arabs is just that. Its a myth and people like you repeat this bull sheeyit that Jews stole land because that script which you parrot was written by Josef Goebels, the Nazi Propaganda Minister as part of a revision of Jewish history by the Nazis. It then was brought by Nazis to Egypt, Syria and Iraq during WW2. Those three nations created Nazi puppet states. Their leaders had Hitler mustaches and the Hitler mustache became the mustache of the Arab world. To this day the militaries of Syria, Egypt and Iraq have ceremonial uniforms that are based on the Nazi uniform helmet. riding pants, boots, goose step, and even salute.

In fact the Nazi salute is the salute of Hamas, Hezbollah and ove 300 Palestinian terror ells all tracing their roots back to the Mufti Of Jerusalem a Nazi ally who led regular attacks to kill Jews in pre Israel Palestine.

Can you at least be fair before you parrot the Nazi script. That script was brought to the Middle East and in particular Syria, Iraq and Egypt who

modeled themselves on the Nazis.

After WW2, over 200,000 Nazi civil servants and officials were welcomed into Damascus, Cairo, Alexandria and Iraq where they ran their armies, police forces and propaganda ministries. The Mukbarat political police of the Arab world is modeled on Gestapo.

As Nazis died off the KGB moved in as the Soviet Union became the principal ally of these countries and it get the script going and introduced into

the UN the history inversion myth that Jews were colonialists when in reality the Jews of Israel fed the colonial nations of Europe and Arab League nations and were victims of colonialists. In fact the Arab League armies in 1948-1949 were led by British, French and ex Nazi military.

In fact Stalin in 1948-1949 sided with Jews in Israel precisely because they were being attacked by colonialists and Arab puppet colonialist regimes.

Stalin only turned on Israel when it refused to ally itself with the Soviets. In fact the US initially would not recognize Israel and in Truman's memoirs he admits it was Elenor Roosevelt the UN Ambassador for Jewish Refugees who talked him and his cabinet down and got them to recognize Israel.

Even as Truman was prepared to turn his back on Israel, Israel refused to side with the Soviets and turn their back on the US precisely because of

Elenor Roosevelt the only person at that time to defend the right of Jews to a nation. That women single handedly took on the entire US government. It was so bad Truman was threatened with impeachment if he recognized Israel but he was as he says in his memoirs moved by her pleas and confronted his own myths about Jews.

The history is there to read. Israel stole no land. It often paid over price for swamp land. The area of pre 1967 Israel was not milk and honey. It was malaria infested swamp and sand.

When Jews began to bring it back to life itinerant Arabs who did not live on one piece of land moved close to Jewish settlements.

In fact the agitation between Jews and Arabs were not the actual Palestinian Arabs and Jews but outside Arabs who flooded the area displacing Palestinian Arabs and owed their loyalty not to Palestinian Arabs but the British, Germans, French.

The fact is most l and stolen from Palestinian Arabs was actually from fellow Arabs from outside Palestine who flooded to the area thanks

to British immigration policies designed to flood the area to prevent a Jewish state in the area outside Jordan.

Get your history right. The Palestinian national is a myth. There was no Palestine. It was a designated geographic name not a nation. Out of it illegally came Jordan. Israel came about in 1949. It said it would accept 6% of all of Palestine. The Arab League and the Mufti of Jerusalem said, not one inch of sand in the Middle East would go to Jews and started a war of genocide to wipe the Jews out and they failed.

To this day Arabs whine that they did not succeed and use the myth of displaced Palestinian to call for the dismantling of Israel and turning it into a Muslim state along with Jordan and the West Bank. Read their charters. Read the charters of the PA and Hamas. They are at war to take back not just Israel but Jordan.

You can deny that and play into this bullsheeyit myth but the Balfour declaration which proposed a sliver of land for a Jewish enclave was even agreed to by Jews. It was the Arab world who said no, not Jews.

That was in 1949 was not started by Jews. It was won by Jews. The pre 1967 border came about because that is where the Arab League armies ran from war and as far as the Jews could extend themselves.

It was called a de facto border. Its never been recognized by the Arab League of nations. To this day, the Arab League of Nations will not recognize it as a border UNLESS and UNTIL Israel agrees not to be Jewish anymore. The condition of recognition is Israel stops being Jewish, i.e., it allows

anyone claiming to be a descendant of a displaced Palestinian automatic right to return to Israel and be given land and citizenship.

That's a fancy way of saying get rid of the Jews and give the Arabs the land. It also states a Palestinian can not be a Jew. In the state proposed as Israel it would be MUSLIM and eventually unify with Jordan and the West bank into one MUSLIM state which eventually would merge with other MUSLIM states as part of a one world MUSLIM theocracy. Go read the constitutions of the PA and Hamas. Hezbollah, PFLP. Oslamic Johad.

You want to talk land theft? In fact so many outside Arabs illegally stole and took over land from actual Palestinian Arabs that Yasir Arafat burned down the land titles office on the West Bank to hide that truth otherwise his myth that everyone on the West Bank was a Palestinian would have been exposed as a farse.

In fact the majority of people calling themselves Palestinian Arabs are decscended from non Palestinian Arabs who stole the land from Palestinian Arabs.

In fact even the term "Palestinian" was ridiculed by Palestinian nationals and Arafat who declared repeatedly there was no such thing as a Palestinian just an Arab. It was only in 1967 when Arafat failed to kill King Hussein and take over Jordan he changed the word to mean what it supposedly means today.

In fact the West Bank was annexed by Jordan until the Black Sabbath uprising of1967 when Arafat failed to seize Jordan. The KIng left the West Bank and ended the automatic right of Palestinians to citizenship in Jordan.

Then after that unsuccessful coups came the 1967 war which forced Israel to move into the West Bank to prevent Fatah and the PLO from using

the West Bank to attack and kill Jews.

You have no clue how small Israel is. You have no clue that the border of the West Bank made it possible to kill Jews and cut of the country.

You want to call the settlements that then grew illegal. Knock yourself out. Hey Palestinians are the only people in the world who call themselves refugees when none of them are actual refugees but in fact alleged descendants of refugees. No other refugee people in the world can call themselves a refugee unless they themselves were displaced. If their offspring are born outside their home country, they are not refugees.

However Palestinians have ben alllowed a new definition that changes descendants of alleged refugees to be called refugees. Who are they descended from hmmm? 90% are descended from non Palestinian Arabs. In fact the majority of so called Palestinians on the West Bank are

people who moved there after 1949 or who moved there before 1949 no differently than Jews did.

If an Arab moved to Palestine or Jordan or was born here they are now called a Palestinian or a Jordanian. When a Jew is born in Israel

we call them a colonial invader. Such bullsheyit. Jews who came to Palestine were no different than Arabs who came to Palestine

but in the myth you follow any Arab presto is a Palestinian if they want to call themselves that.

Enough with the bullsheyit.

The West Bank was never part of any nation before Jordan annexed it then gave it up.. It was always and remains disputed land.

It is automatically assumed the West Bank is now Palestine because the Arab League of Nations who displaced 900,000 Jews, started a war they lost and were the ones to jail Palestinians in refugee camps saying they would be used as pawns until the world undid Israel.

The same Europe which had many nations rid itself of Jews during WW2 causing displaced Jews along with the Arab League of nations.

these two creators of dead and homeless Jews now ally in resolutions at the UN condemning Israel while remaining silent as to

Arab terrorism.

Spare me the double standard where Jews are not Palestinians, only Muslim Arabs are.

Now in pursuit of peace Israel would leave the West Bank and retreat to defensible borders. It can't and won't until Hamas and the PA abandon their delcared state of wars on Israel.

No Israel does not have to and will not withdraw to unsafe borders to enable terrorists better access to kill its people.

You want to talk about stolen land go look at who lives on the West Bank and where they came from and how they came to live on that land.

Stop pretending Jews stole land. We stole nothing. In fact we were robbed and mutilated and we said no more, we will never again be victims and

to this day the attempt to demonize us on this board is precisely the exercise of people who want to turn us Jews into homeless secondary inferiors and we will never again allow that.

[Rue]

Another crime by Israil, a Turkish person who walks with a Turkish flag on his back in stolen Palestinian lands been arrested for 8 hours.

Another crime by Israil, a Turkish person who walks with a Turkish flag on his back in stolen Palestinian lands been arrested for 8 hours.

No lands were stolen. As well if some Turk wants to parade around on "Palestinian" lands with a Turkish flag and agitate you bet he will be arrested no differently than a Kurd would be arrested in your homeland if he paraded around with a Kurdish flag.

The dummy was arrested for his own good. He was more likely to get knifed or shot by a Palestinian than Israeli. If you think Turks are loved by Arabs let alone Palestinians you need to grow up. The Turks oppressed the Palestinians. They do not forget. Don't play that your country is now saviour of Palestinians. It exploited them by making them tend the land of rich absentee landowners from your country at slave wages. To pretend the Turks are now defenders of Palestinians as about as funny as Europeans who do the same. The British, French, Germans, used Palestinians for their own selfish foreign policy needs.

Palestinians? They have no true allies. None. The Jordanians and Arab league nations hate them They are despised. In fact their only ally are believe it or not average Israelis who can not reach out to them at this point because of the monopoly extremists have on their government.

Obama abandon the Palestinians by supporting Hamas. In so doing he made Abbas a useless lameduck. Palestinians despise Hamas the very

puppet Obama has propped and Erdogan props.

You think Palestinians support Hamas? You think Erdogan knows a damn thing about Palestinians? Right.

Palestinians are simply pawns in a chess game like Israelis. Eventually the two will ally in spite of people who claim to know both.

Palestinians like Israelis have no allies. Their existential struggle will never be completed as long as terrorists control their fate.

Eventually moderate Palestinians will find way to rid themselves of outside extremist terrorists who contaminate their people's children. Eventually they will re-establish an alliance with Israel they did have before the Muslim brotherhood moved in to turn Hamas violent and try rid Jordan of its King.

Eventually Jordan, The West Bank and Israel will find away to create a three autonomous nation common market and alliance. It will be in spite of Turkey and any other outside agitator.

If I were Turkey before I lecture Israel about Palestinians I would be looking at the blood on your hands from Armenians and Kurds and how you treated Arab peoples during the Ottoman Empire. That's quite a legacy to ignore in trying to prop Erdogan as the new Nasser of the Arab world. He's not. He's a self destructive meglomaniac who will go the way of Ghadaffi and Sadaam Hussein and

eventually Assad, Erdogan is a lame duck dictator trying to arrest as many civil servants as he can, at least count a recen perge of 43,0000. You know Stalin, Hitler, Sadaam Hussein, Kim Jung Yun, Mao, the current Iranian regime, they all have gone on purges

to kill off their opponents. You really think that will prevent what's coming?

Lol. Man what would you do if Palestinians and Israelis shook hands. Who would you have to distract from the Muslim on Muslim violence?

Edited September 3, 2016 by Rue

[Altai]

Israelis claim that the famous lands belongs to them because of it was given by God to them (loool) and their grandfather was living there first. Then according to your claims, you have to give the half of the lands to Arabs because of you both came from the same father but different mothers. So you have to divide the heritage (so lands) into two.


Now deal with it : ))) I am going to sleep.

[jbg]

Gitmo is barbaric. There's only one main reason why Gitmo is located where it is: so that it's not on US territory, and therefore whatever happens there doesn't apply under US law, nor do the prisoners have any rights under US law.

Extending an olive branch and acting in good faith certainly doesn't mean letting your defenses down, or even ceasing the use of military violence to defend yourself when absolutely necessary.

I don't know of any allegations that Guantanamo has conditions different or worse than any other prisons. As far as the "olive branch" theory Israel has always been open to negotiations. The Arabs have put forth no credible negotiating party or proposal.

The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands is not a very good reason to take more land from Palestinian Arabs. There was a war between Arab states and Israel but not between Palestine or Israel.

The "Palestinians" have not stopped asymetrical warfare. Has any state taken responsibility for the attacks on buses, pizza parlors and car-rammngs?

Israelis claim that the famous lands belongs to them because of it was given by God to them (loool) and their grandfather was living there first. Then according to your claims, you have to give the half of the lands to Arabs because of you both came from the same father but different mothers. So you have to divide the heritage (so lands) into two.

Now deal with it : ))) I am going to sleep.

I am not quite sure what to make of this post. First of all, I don't enjoy the mocking tone. Especially since the Arab argument is that they "got their first" and the Jewish argument is that they were there always and had never entirely left. Both are serious arguments and, in a better world, would be dealt with by serious negotiations rather than rejectionism. By "rejectionism" I mean a position that says that a Jewish state in that region will never be recognized and that any agreement is a truce along the way to annihilation.

Edited September 5, 2016 by jbg

[Altai]

I am not quite sure what to make of this post. First of all, I don't enjoy the mocking tone. Especially since the Arab argument is that they "got their first" and the Jewish argument is that they were there always and had never entirely left. Both are serious arguments and, in a better world, would be dealt with by serious negotiations rather than rejectionism. By "rejectionism" I mean a position that says that a Jewish state in that regiojn will never be recognized and that any agreement is a truce along the way to annihilation.

If you were there since the beginning (loool) this means Arabs were also there since the beginning. Because you are from the same father, the prophet Abraham. You claim that the famous lands belongs to Israelis because of it was belong to Abraham and Israelis are his grandchildren. The same way Arabs are his grandchildren too. So then you have to divide the famous lands into two, according to your claims. In fact its fully belong to Palestinians. I am just going over your theory. So I say the the worst possibility.

[DogOnPorch]

If you were there since the beginning (loool) this means Arabs were also there since the beginning. Because you are from the same father, the prophet Abraham. You claim that the famous lands belongs to Israelis because of it was belong to Abraham and Israelis are his grandchildren. The same way Arabs are his grandchildren too. So then you have to divide the famous lands into two, according to your claims. In fact its fully belong to Palestinians. I am just going over your theory. So I say the the worst possibility.

Arabs didn't arrive in the region until the 7th century AD.

So even land purchased by the Zionist Movement fair n' square doesn't belong to them?

[Scott Mayers]

If you were there since the beginning (loool) this means Arabs were also there since the beginning. Because you are from the same father, the prophet Abraham. You claim that the famous lands belongs to Israelis because of it was belong to Abraham and Israelis are his grandchildren. The same way Arabs are his grandchildren too. So then you have to divide the famous lands into two, according to your claims. In fact its fully belong to Palestinians. I am just going over your theory. So I say the the worst possibility.

What's even more interesting is that "Judaism" itself originally derived as an offshoot of the Egyptian rule of the 18th and 19th Dynasties from Ahmosis to Ramesis [Ra-moses (Sun Leader)]. Akhenaten (Akin to the Aten, or "shape/circle/oval boundary defining the sun), was the strict leader in between who demanded no other tribal beliefs. Prior to this period, the Northern African/Middle East/ Turkey were very Metropolitan and accepting of various cultures. The latest period extended to Assyria in the north and it was they who held these last periods before its final 'fall'.

The remnant 'divide' between Egyptian dynasty to the rest of the Middle East had their last Temple in Jerusalem and where Judaism redesigned its roots. All people in this whole region are of mixed variety from everywhere and the Middle East is merely the crossroads where trade was done. Its 'ownership', just as with the rest of the world, is ALL OF OURS! But Palestinian/Arabs were most recently the long-held inhabitants there and so deserve respectful right to call that 'home' with more precedent than the Israelis, who both took over the territory AND excluded the original residents there. For this reason, I find the Israelis at fault given its most relatively recent takeover.

If we are to assume no one 'just' for their right other than force, than there is just as much validity to those who use ANY tactic they equally feel is justified as force. To STOP terrorism requires to treat the Palestinians as 'owners' as equal to the young generation of Israelis (since the kids of parents who are at fault are NOT theirs to bear). Otherwise, the only other solution is to ABANDON 'ownership' rights to anyone. Let it be the WORLD who 'owns' it collectively since we all have significant 'right' to it in historical significance.

[Altai]

Arabs didn't arrive in the region until the 7th century AD.

So even land purchased by the Zionist Movement fair n' square doesn't belong to them?

DoesNT matter that when they were arrived the area. Its their grandpa's lands. This is your problem that you gave money to buy some parts of it and its also illegal. So you can buy lands from any country, this dont give you a right to establish a state illegally.

[DogOnPorch]

DoesNT matter that when they were arrived the area. Its their grandpa's lands. This is your problem that you gave money to buy some parts of it and its also illegal. So you can buy lands from any country, this dont give you a right to establish a state illegally.

I gave no money to anybody.....not Jewish.

So to clarify your position: all the land in the Middle East belongs to who? Muslims? Or Arabs?

[Scott Mayers]

Arabs didn't arrive in the region until the 7th century AD.

So even land purchased by the Zionist Movement fair n' square doesn't belong to them?

The Zionists who bought the land, even if "official" (which is troublesome considering what or who 'owns' is questionable), they did so IN ANOTHER LAND, just as though some Arabian Immigrant might come to Canada or the U.S. to buy land. Does this automatically mean that the very 'ownership' one has BECOMES sovereignty restricted to those 'owners'? If some majority of Arabian ancestral people bought land here, are they not subject to the laws that PERMIT "OWNERSHIP" granted by the laws create in that sovereignty? OR....does the 'ownership' one has MAKE THEM THERE OWN COUNTRY?

This is the issue at question. The Zionists who 'bought' made negotiations of 'ownership' by ABSENTEE claims, AND the settling Zionists declared that land their own SOVEREIGN domain exceptional to the very people they are supposedly legitimate purchasers to. As such, either the owners as Zionists are subject to the people who live there and 'OWN' the country, or the sovereignty of the Palestinians there were disrespected as though they were and are 'floaters' upon the land as though Aliens from another world.

Either way, that land is more home to the Palestinians. And with respect to the 'legitimacy' of purchases, besides, to only the absent claims of 'ownership' have these Zionists 'purchased' anything. I could technically sell you the Eiffel Tower but would it hold up in 'legitimacy' for the Parisians?

[i see Altai pointed this out above too before my post here.]

Edited September 4, 2016 by Scott Mayers

[DogOnPorch]

The Ottoman Empire controlled everything up until 1918.

Arab Nationalism was born in 1917 with the sudden realization the Jews wanted their own state: Enter the Grand Mufti.

[herples]

The Ottoman Empire controlled everything up until 1918.

Arab Nationalism was born in 1917 with the sudden realization the Jews wanted their own state: Enter the Grand Mufti.

More that they didn't want a Jewish home land carved out of their own and the British interfering. Arab Nationalism is before 1900's. The grand Mufti did not start the nationalism movement as I have shown time and time again.

[DogOnPorch]

More that they didn't want a Jewish home land carved out of their own and the British interfering. Arab Nationalism is before 1900's. The grand Mufti did not start the nationalism movement as I have shown time and time again.

Immaterial. The 1858 Land Code allowed anybody to buy land in the Empire. Not just Jews.

The Mufti did....