Ontario's Sunshine List is Out again

[Argus]

More than 115,000 public servants earned $100,000 plus last year, some of them way more. There were thousands of bus drivers on the list, even even more thousands of police and firefighters and teachers. At the higher end of the list we can see that anyone appointed to run a hospital or university made out like a bandit - or a bandit chief. I have to wonder whether these jobs are so complicated and require such a unique skill set that the individuals appointed to them should earn enough to own a mansion and be driven around by a chauffeured limo.

In the federal public service the only people earning over $100,000 are mid-level managers and higher, and some specialists like lawyers and doctors. It seems passing strange that my last boss, who was responsible for nationwide programs implemented in tax centres across the country, and who had a budget of tens of millions of dollars, earned less than thousands of bus drivers, cops and teachers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/2015-sunshine-list-ontario/article29364126/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/2015-the-sunshine-list-ontario/article23597189/

Edited March 25, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Once again, I will point out that more people will be on the list EVERY year until its annually adjusted for inflation. Also the population is aging so long-term employees have been in their jobs another year longer.

Edited March 25, 2016 by cybercoma

[Cruze]

They need to earn these incomes in order to afford the high cost of homes etc.

The biggest problem here is the inflated housing costs etc.

The Real Estate Industry and Banking Industry and Insurance Industry have over Inflated the costs of homes and just about everything else we do to survive, in order to inflate there incomes.

Costs go up to live = Unions push for higher salaries = Government needs to raise taxes to offset the costs.

It's a revolving cycle of greed.

And yet the average citizen want's and expects every service know matter how superficial it is.

They want bike lanes that cost 5 million dollars to build and service,yet you can only use 7 months of the year.

And the list goes on and on.

So the best solution our Liberals have is to keep borrowing,and let the next generation pay for it.

They don't care the damage,as long as they keep there pensions.

It's become a very two tier society between the rich and middleclass.

[Bob Macadoo]

In the federal public service the only people earning over $100,000 are mid-level managers and higher, and some specialists like lawyers and doctors.

Really? Do you have a cite for this? I question it. Any employee who works minimum +20% per annum overtime at 1.5x to 2x will be grossing >100k. Guess what; first responders are forced to work this way due to the coverage required and the human capital mismanagement by your "mid-level" managers because they are not given autonomy for critical decisions by their senior managers as they are behooved to political decisions. All 'round the mulberry bush....the monkey chased the......

Edited March 25, 2016 by Bob Macadoo

[Argus]

Really? Do you have a cite for this?

Not really. It's from experience, but federal pay rates are posted publicly, and PSAC has previously given the average wage rate as somewhere in the high $30ks.

The majority of federal employees are clerks who don't earn more than $50k. The second largest batch are PMs and top pay rate for the majority of those is around $70-80k.

I question it. Any employee who works minimum +20% per annum overtime

Is working for an incompetent employer, in most cases.

Guess what; first responders are forced to work this way due to

The way their contracts are structured and the lack of spines of the politicians who negotiate those contracts, as well as the arbitration system set up by a premier who is in the pockets of the public service unions, and who is rewarded well for her faithful service to those unions.

[Bob Macadoo]

The majority of federal employees are clerks who don't earn more than $50k. The second largest batch are PMs and top pay rate for the majority of those is around $70-80k.

You aren't finding clerks on the List. Clerks don't often work OT, nor are they entitled to manager performance bonuses. How many RCMP officers would be on the list? As for your PMs I'll bet the 80k is their base, what is the top up they can earn?

Is working for an incompetent employer, in most cases.

Which is what I said, but more appropriately placed it at the feetof the political masters (red, blue or orange) but it has nothing to due with payrates in contracts and everything to do with inability to deal with vacation scheduling, sick leave, project scheduling, etc., hence the OT requirement.

[Argus]

You aren't finding clerks on the List. Clerks don't often work OT, nor are they entitled to manager performance bonuses. How many RCMP officers would be on the list? As for your PMs I'll bet the 80k is their base, what is the top up they can earn?

Overtime is strongly discouraged throughout the federal government. PMs, like every other classification, are a pyramid. That is, there are lots of PM2s, fewer PM4s, even fewer PM5s, and almost nothing above that. The top pay rate for PM5s is in the $80k range. The same goes for the AS (administrative) people. Once you get above the 5s you're almost always talking conversion into management (MG classification). There are no bonuses for any of these groups, though some technical groups, especially some of the computer people, will have retention bonuses. Managers do get some bonuses, though mostly in time at lower levels. You mostly have to get into the EX (executive) ranks to get dollar bonuses

Which is what I said, but more appropriately placed it at the feetof the political masters (red, blue or orange) but it has nothing to due with payrates in contracts and everything to do with inability to deal with vacation scheduling, sick leave, project scheduling, etc., hence the OT requirement.

Of course. The whole ridiculous arbitration system for first responders (over 60% of the list) is a farcical creation of the provincial government, which has refused to change it despite being inundated with complaints from municipalities. The arbitration system does not take into account the ability of a municipality to pay higher salaries, nor things like working conditions or local cost of living. Thus a cop or firefighter in Timmins, where you can buy a detached house for under $100k, makes the same as a cop or firefighter in Toronto.

The overly generous arrangements with teachers and other provincial employees adds to the mess where we are seeing the only people without a high demand, relatively rare skillset able to command anything close to six figure salaries are now public servants. Including a couple of dozen ticket takers on the Toronto subway, for Gods sakes.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Argus

[Bob Macadoo]

Of course. The whole ridiculous arbitration system for first responders (over 60% of the list) is a farcical creation of the provincial government, which has refused to change it despite being inundated with complaints from municipalities. The arbitration system does not take into account the ability of a municipality to pay higher salaries, nor things like working conditions or local cost of living.

It's a damned if you do/don't scenario. You can't stack the deck, legislation-wise, else unions would sue you....and win. You can't dispense with arbitration, else deal with the fall-out of lock-out/strike. The list of arbitrators, with their proclivities, is open for all to see. There are arbitrators who weight local agreements higher than provincial ones......there is nothing that says you need to evenly distribute arbitrator jobs......stop paying the "weak" ones, in your opinion, and they will realign.

[ReeferMadness]

Without context, this list is nothing more than propaganda and systematic invasion of privacy. The context comes from the private sector salaries. Presumably, a sizable proportion (maybe most) of these people live in Toronto, where average salaries are high and so is the cost of living.

What's called for is analysis of pay by level and comparison to the private sector. What this is is a public shaming of professional staff who work in the public service.

[Argus]

It's a damned if you do/don't scenario. You can't stack the deck, legislation-wise, else unions would sue you....and win.

I'm not talking about stacking the deck. I'm talking about setting reasonable terms for an arbitrator which take into account a municipalities ability to pay and local conditions. There's no way a cop in Timmins should make what one in Toronto makes, for example. There's no way a municipality should be forced to pay its ordinary cops and firefighters more money than the mayor makes.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Fee-for-service physicians should be on the list. At the moment, people think some salaried physicians on he list are the high medical earners which is definitely not the case. By all means, get an accountant in to calculate the benefit of billings after real expenses but publish what they go home with. For some cardiologists, radiologists and ophthalmologists, the sums going into their personal corporations are colossal, way more than general surgeons who confront a wider range of challenging procedures.

Edited March 27, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland

[Bob Macadoo]

I'm not talking about stacking the deck. I'm talking about setting reasonable terms for an arbitrator which take into account a municipalities ability to pay and local conditions. There's no way a cop in Timmins should make what one in Toronto makes, for example. There's no way a municipality should be forced to pay its ordinary cops and firefighters more money than the mayor makes.

I get confused by your statement. Why shouldn't a Timmins cop make a comparable wage to TO? Is it because he doesn't patrol Jane/Finch? Neither do 90% of TO cops. I would suggest patrolling Timmins is more dangerous than the majority of TO. More work too. Less back-up, no specialization units, no admin staff, etc. I would suggest that although housing is cheaper, everything else is more expensive.

Just so you know its not TO pay that drives cop prices.....its the affluent suburbs who give in. Just as police unions organize....municipalities have the same ability.

[Argus]

I get confused by your statement. Why shouldn't a Timmins cop make a comparable wage to TO? Is it because he doesn't patrol Jane/Finch? Neither do 90% of TO cops. I would suggest patrolling Timmins is more dangerous than the majority of TO. More work too. Less back-up, no specialization units, no admin staff, etc. I would suggest that although housing is cheaper, everything else is more expensive.

Just so you know its not TO pay that drives cop prices.....its the affluent suburbs who give in. Just as police unions organize....municipalities have the same ability.

What drives first responder salaries is an arbitration system which says the arbitrator should use the highest paid police service as the standard in awarding new salary increases. No, it actually isn't as hard to be a cop in Timmins as in Toronto or Ottawa or any other big cities. The danger is lower and the workload lighter, and the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in Toronto. If you look at other earnings you'll find people out in Timmins earn less than in Toronto in every category. But that's okay, because the cost of living is so much lower. The mayor makes $66k. Local councillors make $35-$40k.

[Bob Macadoo]

What drives first responder salaries is an arbitration system which says the arbitrator should use the highest paid police service as the standard in awarding new salary increases. No, it actually isn't as hard to be a cop in Timmins as in Toronto or Ottawa or any other big cities. The danger is lower and the workload lighter, and the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in Toronto. If you look at other earnings you'll find people out in Timmins earn less than in Toronto in every category. But that's okay, because the cost of living is so much lower. The mayor makes $66k. Local councillors make $35-$40k.

My friend who works an isolated community says it was harder than when he worked in a city detachment. Meth addiction is rampant, mental instability and familial feuds are handled without back-up. He's expected to be a community leader and enforcer. He's RCMP and can't wait to get his transfer in.

In my opinion police in either community face similar difficult duties but I would argue councillors in Timmins have far less responsibility, fiduciary and socially than a city councillor......their benefit reflects this.

[Argus]

My friend who works an isolated community says it was harder than when he worked in a city detachment. Meth addiction is rampant, mental instability and familial feuds are handled without back-up. He's expected to be a community leader and enforcer. He's RCMP and can't wait to get his transfer in.

In my opinion police in either community face similar difficult duties but I would argue councillors in Timmins have far less responsibility, fiduciary and socially than a city councillor......their benefit reflects this.

The lower cost of living out there means you could see a situation where in every town, the richest people are the firefighters and cops. That's patently ridiculous.

You need a couple of million to buy a detached house in Toronto. You can do it for a twentieth of that in Timmins. If you look south, the big city cops make a lot more than the small town cops for just that reason, along with the fact you're less likely to get shot in small towns.

Besides, the real point is that while we want to be generous, the basic pay for any position should be the amount needed to attract sufficient qualified individuals to that position. We all know very well that you could cut first responder salaries by a third and easily get enough qualified applicants. You could do the same for teachers and most lower level public servants, including hospital, university and municipal workers. How in Gods name do ticket takers and bus drivers earn anywhere near enough, even with overtime, to get on the sunshine list?

[jacee]

The way their contracts are structured and the lack of spines of the politicians who negotiate those contracts, as well as the arbitration system set up by a premier who is in the pockets of the public service unions, and who is rewarded well for her faithful service to those unions.

There's a simpler explanation:

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6405531-four-hundred-hamilton-police-constables-make-it-onto-the-2015-sunshine-list/

Retroactive pay from a new contract helped push 400 Hamilton police constables onto the provincial "sunshine list" last year.

...

That jump was primarily due to three years of retroactive pay awarded after a new contract settlement last year, said police corporate spokesperson Catherine Martin.

Lump sum payments put a lot of people on the list.

.

[cybercoma]

Whoops. Context.

[Bob Macadoo]

The lower cost of living out there means you could see a situation where in every town, the richest people are the firefighters and cops. That's patently ridiculous.

....and? Who else should be richer up there other than miners,etc. with their danger pay? I've already said town councillors shouldn't.

You need a couple of million to buy a deached house in Toronto. You can do it for a twentieth of that in Timmins. If you look south, the big city cops make a lot more than the small town cops for just that reason, along with the fact you're less likely to get shot in small towns.

Only TO cops don't live in the city; they move to where other middle income earners go. They like a larger house. Some living 1hr+ outside of TO and accept the commute. Canada doesn't have a large ghettoization/gang related crime problem like those cities down south hence why there isn't that risk. I would argue there have been more constables killed/severely injured on duty outside of cities rather than in. That would be due to the risks I've already described.

[Argus]

Lump sum payments put a lot of people on the list.

From a Toronto Star story last year on the new contract awarded to Toronto Police. As you can see, even without overtime or bonuses police regular pay is now pretty close to $100k. Virtually all police forces in Ontario now have this retention pay scheme, which is unneeded and unnecessary.

The base salary for a Toronto police first class constable will grow to $98,450 by 2018, though an officer receiving maximum retention pay — an entitlement police retained — would receive $107,312.

[cybercoma]

So what? I've not seen a reasonable argument that they're overpaid.

[The_Squid]

Bus drivers don't make a base salary of $100k, so it's overtime that bumps some of them over $100k. Poor planning by managers for being understaffed.

[Argus]

Bus drivers don't make a base salary of $100k, so it's overtime that bumps some of them over $100k. Poor planning by managers for being understaffed.

It's not necessarily poor planning. A lot of union contracts in these places are designed to bring about conditions which require overtime, and lots of it.

[The_Squid]

It's not necessarily poor planning. A lot of union contracts in these places are designed to bring about conditions which require overtime, and lots of it.

That's a stretch. There's nothing preventing the employer from having adequate staffing to alleviate the amount of OT.

[Smoke]

So what? I've not seen a reasonable argument that they're overpaid.

I haven't seen any reasonable argument that they are worth what they're paid.

[cybercoma]

Their employer is willing to pay them that much. That's all the argument you need ere.