Argus Posted March 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I think a lot of it comes down to the 4th definition: an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nation We generally associate the word with country, but that isn't always correct. But that is how they are treating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I've come to understand that it's not as simple as it would seem from my perspective. Yes, it seems so simple -- until you look a little deeper. Education, oversight, accountability, relocation, economic development, all a part of the solution puzzle I think. No single solution, nor even single combination will work for every situation which is why it's so complex. I think it would also be true that support for people already addicted as well as their children would be a key component before other solutions can even be considered for some of the more desperate communities. A community that has a 75% alcohol addiction rate, and having fourteen-year-olds giving birth is barely worthy of comment then it seems to me that solving the social ills must happen before economic development can be considered, even if a region is suitable for that. I don't see relocation for these people as much of a solution to solving social ills, either - I think it has to start with the youngest generations and include education and other social supports within their community, even if delivered by non-Natives. Unfortunately, this would require a long-term outlook, and quite a lot of money which people are loath to spend on a group that is widely regarded as lazy and greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) A community that has a 75% alcohol addiction rate, and having fourteen-year-olds giving birth is barely worthy of comment then it seems to me that solving the social ills must happen before economic development can be considered, even if a region is suitable for that. Given that those social ills are driven primarily by poverty I don't see how that can happen. I think one of the issues is that there is a desire to see the problems that plague FN solved without ructions in the communities or discomfort to those observing, and that's not going to happen either. Edited March 20, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Given that those social ills are driven primarily by poverty I don't see how that can happen. I think one of the issues is that there is a desire to see the problems that plague FN solved without ructions in the communities or discomfort to those observing, and that's not going to happen either. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'solved without ructions in the community' or 'discomfort to those observing'. As a "bleeding heart leftie liberal', I'm already discomfited by the problems that plague FN communities on and off reservations. If encouraging them to move would solve their issues after some short term pain, I would consider that an acceptable solution. However, moving people who are addicted and dysfunctional doesn't solve the problems of addiction or dysfunction. They both have to happen in concert with each other, and I believe the solving of the dysfunction and addiction would work better if it started within the community, and was followed by providing them with the skills and tools they'd need to succeed when moving to a new location. How would you handle it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Basically, I mean that whatever is done, it's going to hurt. Like toothache, though, it's better to get it over with. How would I handle it? I have absolutely no idea. I'm talking in basic generalities that seem obvious to me. Being born on a reserve is starting at a loss. Being asked to remain there is unfair, and I think if every effort is not made to give people a way off then that is what is being asked of them. Accountability for money provided to an individual or a group is also a no brainer. Accountability to those for whom they are responsible, and also to those providing the money. People who know far more than me can figure out the specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Basically, I mean that whatever is done, it's going to hurt. Like toothache, though, it's better to get it over with. How would I handle it? I have absolutely no idea. Well, I have to say -- you seem all too ready to criticize, with no real insight into either the problems and no idea of solutions. People who know far more than me can figure out the specifics. As long as those 'specifics' match up with what you already think seems obvious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Well, I have to say -- you seem all too ready to criticize, with no real insight into either the problems and no idea of solutions. As long as those 'specifics' match up with what you already think seems obvious? Criticize Canada for its treatment of natives? Perish the thought. As far as the specifics go, I'm not proud. If something works, it works. It doesn't have to be my idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Criticize Canada for its treatment of natives? Perish the thought. As far as the specifics go, I'm not proud. If something works, it works. It doesn't have to be my idea. Isn't it obvious how great the current system is? Clearly the answer is more of that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Yeah, says you. That doesn't make it so, of course. Some people see racism in every disagreement with their positions.It's pretty clear from comments on this thread that respectable people realize when they see terms like sub-human on a thread about natives that they're clearly dealing with racists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) It's pretty clear from comments on this thread that respectable people realize when they see terms like sub-human on a thread about natives that they're clearly dealing with racists. Is that it? A simple misunderstanding based on too quick a read? Or is it so upsetting that he might have been talking about you that there was no misunderstanding, rather a deliberate misinterpretation? Edited March 20, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Is that it? A simple misunderstanding based on too quick a read? Or is it so upsetting that he might have been talking about you that there was no misunderstanding, rather a deliberate misinterpretation?No, facetiousness is certainly no excuse, neither are pretensions of civil apologetics that are attending the racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Isn't it obvious how great the current system is? Clearly the answer is more of that! It seems to be very touchy subject. Heaven forbid someone should point out the painfully obvious without all the required qualifications and a list of solutions that meet the pc happy face criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) No, facetiousness is certainly no excuse, neither are pretensions of civil apologetics that are attending the racism.You didn't read it then.Edit> actually, looking back at my post and your reply, I stil have no idea if you are deliberately misinterpreting his words or not. Sorry I replied too quickly. Edited March 20, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Sure I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Sure I did. Sorry, see my last edit. Deliberate misinterpretation it is then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) You didn't read it then. Trust me, I read it there's is no misinterpreting the condescendingly racist tone of the thread's title and OP's opening sentences or the similarly mealy-mouthed posts speaking to it in the affirmative. I can appreciate that spitting things out too directly these days is frowned upon and you can sure see the effect that's having on the words posters are choosing to use in their thread titles and OP's. It's threads like this that really make me wonder about political correctness and who actually needs to be treated with kids gloves the most when it comes to calling out racism. Edit> actually, looking back at my post and your reply, I stil have no idea if you are deliberately misinterpreting his words or not. Sorry I replied too quickly. If you've got something to say just spit it out and spare me the faux naivete and civility - it's even more transparently ridiculous than the attempt by the OP to project their own feelings on everyone else and then pretend he's just a detached observer who is simply reporting on events. Edited March 21, 2016 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 Trust me, I read it there's is no misinterpreting the condescendingly racist tone of the thread's title and OP's opening sentences or the similarly mealy-mouthed posts speaking to it in the affirmative. I can appreciate that spitting things out too directly these days is frowned upon and you can sure see the effect that's having on the words posters are choosing to use in their thread titles and OP's. It's threads like this that really make me wonder about political correctness and who actually needs to be treated with kids gloves the most when it comes to calling out racism. If you've got something to say just spit it out and spare me the faux naivete and civility - it's even more transparently ridiculous than the attempt by the OP to project their own feelings on everyone else and then pretend he's just a detached observer who is simply reporting on events. I didn't want to respond to this thread because it just feeds into the racists comments that have been posted in the OP but I can't abandon other posters here who deserve my support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 It seems to be very touchy subject. Heaven forbid someone should point out the painfully obvious without all the required qualifications and a list of solutions that meet the pc happy face criteria. Agreed...made me wonder about the contrarion view of how well First Nations advice and policy would be accepted by "underperforming", chronic welfare recipients in certain parts of Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 Trust me, I read it there's is no misinterpreting the condescendingly racist tone of the thread's title and OP's opening sentences or the similarly mealy-mouthed posts speaking to it in the affirmative. I can appreciate that spitting things out too directly these days is frowned upon and you can sure see the effect that's having on the words posters are choosing to use in their thread titles and OP's. It's threads like this that really make me wonder about political correctness and who actually needs to be treated with kids gloves the most when it comes to calling out racism. If you've got something to say just spit it out and spare me the faux naivete and civility - it's even more transparently ridiculous than the attempt by the OP to project their own feelings on everyone else and then pretend he's just a detached observer who is simply reporting on events. I do. I did. Neither the naivete nor the civility is false. I like to think the naivete is in your mind only but the civility is real. It's a shame it's not reciprocated more often. I think that you, like some others on here, like to pretend you see racism. It gives you an excuse to ignore the questions, and hyperventilate a bit. Mind the spit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 It seems to be very touchy subject. Heaven forbid someone should point out the painfully obvious without all the required qualifications and a list of solutions that meet the pc happy face criteria. The only touchiness I've seen is towards any challenge to the notion that racism can be presented, articulated and even supported civilly. Heaven forbid a foo should ever shit on someone. Neither the naivete nor the civility is false. Whatever you say chief. I like to think the naivete is in your mind only but the civility is real. It's a shame it's not reciprocated more often. There it is again - a certain neediness for some weird sort of political...politeness whenever racism and bigotry stink the place up. Maybe I could be sold on the idea that racists are unfortunate damaged people that are simply misunderstood and need to be accepted for who and what they are. Give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) The only touchiness I've seen is towards any challenge to the notion that racism can be presented, articulated and even supported civilly. Heaven forbid a foo should ever shit on someone. Whatever you say chief. There it is again - a certain neediness for some weird sort of political...politeness whenever racism and bigotry stink the place up. Maybe I could be sold on the idea that racists are unfortunate damaged people that are simply misunderstood and need to be accepted for who and what they are. Give it a shot. Sure. Or maybe you're just wrong about the racism, and I'm right. That you just need it for your false outrage in order to avoid the discussion. Try breathing, evenly. Edit> I understand a paper bag helps. Edited March 21, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 The native problem needs a solution. Some would say a final solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 Sure. Or maybe you're just wrong about the racism, and I'm right.Maybe, but the number of posters who seem similarly inclined as me suggests otherwise. I know, I'll start another thread with a poll and we'll see what others really think. That you just need it for your false outrage in order to avoid the discussion.Not outrage, disgust - I don't want to get any on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) Maybe, but the number of posters who seem similarly inclined as me suggests otherwise. I know, I'll start another thread with a poll and we'll see what others really think. Not outrage, disgust - I don't want to get any on me. How are you inclined exactly? I said this to you a long time ago: I still don't see any real reasons why they are such bad ideas. Just quivering, hysterical vitriol from the people who don't seem to have them. That was you, the vitriol bit. Two pages later, it's still there. No answers though. So, why start another thread? Just say how you are inclined in this one. To reiterate my position: 1) FN Chiefs receiving tax payer money should be accountable for it, to their own people and the people providing the money, and, 2) Every effort should be made to integrate FN into general Canadian society from reserves where they are currently suffering from poverty, unemployment and insanely high suicide rates. (Short of forcing someone to do what they do not want to, obviously) Those aren't my ideas of course, I just happen to agree with them. I have a question. It just occurred to me. Do you think I take the above positions because I just don't like natives, the same way some on here think I abhor violence in the name of God because I just don't like Arabs? I thought you just thought I was a racist because I dared to actually have an opinion, however uninformed it might be. Edited March 21, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 21, 2016 Report Share Posted March 21, 2016 The native problem needs a solution. Some would say a final solution. Interesting....now it's a "native problem"...not a Canadian problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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