People are getting fed up with natives

[Guest]

As an outsider to all this I have noticed that whenever someone brings up the obvious answers to the problems Natives have in this country, such as, make their leaders accountable for the money they get, help them to leave the reserve and integrate into general society, etc, they are met with a chorus of hysterical accusations, but never any real reasons why they are such bad ideas.

[dialamah]

As an outsider to all this I have noticed that whenever someone brings up the obvious answers to the problems Natives have in this country, such as, make their leaders accountable for the money they get, help them to leave the reserve and integrate into general society, etc, they are met with a chorus of hysterical accusations, but never any real reasons why they are such bad ideas.

Those answers aren't so much bad as ignorant of the reality of the history and current situation for Natives. I grew up in the Cariboo area of British Columbia. About 30 kids were bused into our elementary school from the residences where these kids were forced to stay, miles away from their families and community. Those kids hung together, and while a few of us tried to befriend them, they were too scared and traumatized to trust us, and who could blame them, especially hearing later about conditions in those residences. The adult Natives I saw downtown were generally pretty drunk, and stories were rampant about the living conditions on the local reserves, though the ones farther from town were said to be better. There was not any respect for them as people; they were widely regarded as lazy drunks and looked at with contempt. There was no opportunity for them; the only people I knew who would even consider hiring an Indian were ranchers sometimes. Even East Indians could get jobs in the sawmills, but not any Native Indians that I ever knew about.

In my mid-20s, I happened to move up to Prince Rupert, where the Haida Gwai are; that was the first time I saw Native Indians the least bit 'integrated' - I saw them working in restaurants and bars, and one was a co-worker in a professional office. I was amazed that such a thing was possible - my racist upbringing had convinced me that the problem was the Indians themselves. Prince Rupert showed me that that wasn't necessarily true. There were still quite a few Natives who were drunk on the street, but compared to my hometown it was pretty minor. I was struck by the difference, and never got an answer why, really. I never made it over to Queen Charlotte Island, so no idea what conditions were like over there but it did seem that the less the Natives had to do with whites, the better off they were.

I also have a friend who works in the Federal Government, as part of treaty negotiations. She tells me that the Indians have been treated extremely poorly by the Federal Government; while they had 'treaties', those treaties have been essentially ignored for 150 years and in many ways are still being ignored. The government of Canada has been breaking their own laws in regards to Natives, but most of (white) society doesn't know and/or doesn't care - it's a lot easier to pretend we 'whites' have done nothing wrong, it's all 'them'.

In the 50s, the Government of Canada moved 87 Inuit to the high Arctic, claiming it was for their own good although there is evidence to suggest it was to bolster Canadian claim to Arctic sovereignty. So they uprooted an entire group and plopped them down in an inhospitable environment for which they were ill-equipped, failed to provide adequate supports and in the 80s, the Inuit took the Government to court over it. They eventually got a settlement, and some moved back to their original communities, but it took until 2010 for the Government to finally admit and apologize for what they'd done.

So, yeah ... if I were a Native person in Canada, I'd sure as hell not trust the government one tiny little bit, and damn rights I'd feel entitled to any monetary support they offered. The behavior of the government, and by extension all Canadians, toward the Natives has been appalling. The whiners about how Native people get so many freebies, and don't want to work (yada yada yada) completely ignores the way in which we have destroyed their families and communities, broken our promises and denied it all for so many years.

[eyeball]

As an outsider to all this I have noticed that whenever someone brings up the obvious answers to the problems Natives have in this country, such as, make their leaders accountable for the money they get, help them to leave the reserve and integrate into general society, etc, they are met with a chorus of hysterical accusations, but never any real reasons why they are such bad ideas.

What I've noticed is how reasonable, moderate and humanitarian bigots and racists try to sound in their drive-by sneers against lefties and other sub-humans.

[Guest]

Those answers aren't so much bad as ignorant of the reality of the history and current situation for Natives. I grew up in the Cariboo area of British Columbia. About 30 kids were bused into our elementary school from the residences where these kids were forced to stay, miles away from their families and community. Those kids hung together, and while a few of us tried to befriend them, they were too scared and traumatized to trust us, and who could blame them, especially hearing later about conditions in those residences. The adult Natives I saw downtown were generally pretty drunk, and stories were rampant about the living conditions on the local reserves, though the ones farther from town were said to be better. There was not any respect for them as people; they were widely regarded as lazy drunks and looked at with contempt. There was no opportunity for them; the only people I knew who would even consider hiring an Indian were ranchers sometimes. Even East Indians could get jobs in the sawmills, but not any Native Indians that I ever knew about.

In my mid-20s, I happened to move up to Prince Rupert, where the Haida Gwai are; that was the first time I saw Native Indians the least bit 'integrated' - I saw them working in restaurants and bars, and one was a co-worker in a professional office. I was amazed that such a thing was possible - my racist upbringing had convinced me that the problem was the Indians themselves. Prince Rupert showed me that that wasn't necessarily true. There were still quite a few Natives who were drunk on the street, but compared to my hometown it was pretty minor. I was struck by the difference, and never got an answer why, really. I never made it over to Queen Charlotte Island, so no idea what conditions were like over there but it did seem that the less the Natives had to do with whites, the better off they were.

I also have a friend who works in the Federal Government, as part of treaty negotiations. She tells me that the Indians have been treated extremely poorly by the Federal Government; while they had 'treaties', those treaties have been essentially ignored for 150 years and in many ways are still being ignored. The government of Canada has been breaking their own laws in regards to Natives, but most of (white) society doesn't know and/or doesn't care - it's a lot easier to pretend we 'whites' have done nothing wrong, it's all 'them'.

In the 50s, the Government of Canada moved 87 Inuit to the high Arctic, claiming it was for their own good although there is evidence to suggest it was to bolster Canadian claim to Arctic sovereignty. So they uprooted an entire group and plopped them down in an inhospitable environment for which they were ill-equipped, failed to provide adequate supports and in the 80s, the Inuit took the Government to court over it. They eventually got a settlement, and some moved back to their original communities, but it took until 2010 for the Government to finally admit and apologize for what they'd done.

So, yeah ... if I were a Native person in Canada, I'd sure as hell not trust the government one tiny little bit, and damn rights I'd feel entitled to any monetary support they offered. The behavior of the government, and by extension all Canadians, toward the Natives has been appalling. The whiners about how Native people get so many freebies, and don't want to work (yada yada yada) completely ignores the way in which we have destroyed their families and communities, broken our promises and denied it all for so many years.

Sure, but that's what happened, not what should happen. I have worked in Prince Rupert too, as it happens, with a First Nations lady. She was one of only a small handful of natives I've worked with, all off reserve, so it's all anecdotal, but it seems to me, from informal chats with them, that off reserve is infinitely better than on.

I don't know if anyone would argue with anything you said, but there is nothing in there to say why First Nations leaders should not be accountable for the money they get, to the Canadian taxpayer as well as those they are responsible for on the reserve, or why natives on reserves with 80% unemployment and a suicide rate far beyond anything seen in the rest of Canadian society should not be encouraged to leave.

I can not believe that there exists a school of thought that holds that these cultures should be preserved, in this day and age, at the expense of the people who live in them.

Edited March 20, 2016 by bcsapper

[Guest]

What I've noticed is how reasonable, moderate and humanitarian bigots and racists try to sound in their drive-by sneers against lefties and other sub-humans.

I wouldn't know.

I still don't see any real reasons why they are such bad ideas. Just quivering, hysterical vitriol from the people who don't seem to have them.

[kimmy]

The Osoyoos Indian Band here in Kim Country is an example of what first nations people can do when they have good leadership... My trip there last year really opened my eyes. My typical experience with first nations people is with the many local panhandlers here in Kim City, who are disproportionately aboriginal. It's quite depressing.

-k

[Smallc]

Take a trip to Winnipeg...it's sad in some parts of the city. Actually, you already were in rich Winnipeg (Edmonton).

[dialamah]

but there is nothing in there to say why First Nations leaders should not be accountable for the money they get, to the Canadian taxpayer as well as those they are responsible for on the reserve, or why natives on reserves with 80% unemployment and a suicide rate far beyond anything seen in the rest of Canadian society should not be encouraged to leave.

To whom should the FN leaders be accountable? If you said "To their own people", I would agree.

And it's easy to say "Why don't they leave?", especially for people who have chosen to move far from their native land. I've never understood why my brothers, for instance, have never moved more than 10 miles from the home in which they grew up. But it takes all kinds to make up a world, and for most people, moving away from their home is not a decision taken lightly if at all. Especially when moving away means they are faced with people who do not understand where they've come from, and who look on them as being 'less' than. I believe there is less racism then when I was growing up, but just from this thread I can see that it is still alive and well; who wants to move from where they at least have acceptance, even if the living conditions are deplorable?

The most likely people to leave the reserves are the young people, but because of the conditions under which they grew up, they face considerable challenges and many end up going back home, or ending up on the streets. I think Trudeau is on the right track when he talks about focusing on education for First Nations youth. That will give the upcoming generations the tools to know how to hold their leaders accountable, it will give them knowledge on how to make their communities better, and skills to help them navigate the 'white' world better. It's longer-term plan then 'move them off the reserve', but it's likely to result in a lot more long-term and overall success.

[Guest]

To whom should the FN leaders be accountable? If you said "To their own people", I would agree.

And it's easy to say "Why don't they leave?", especially for people who have chosen to move far from their native land. I've never understood why my brothers, for instance, have never moved more than 10 miles from the home in which they grew up. But it takes all kinds to make up a world, and for most people, moving away from their home is not a decision taken lightly if at all. Especially when moving away means they are faced with people who do not understand where they've come from, and who look on them as being 'less' than. I believe there is less racism then when I was growing up, but just from this thread I can see that it is still alive and well; who wants to move from where they at least have acceptance, even if the living conditions are deplorable?

The most likely people to leave the reserves are the young people, but because of the conditions under which they grew up, they face considerable challenges and many end up going back home, or ending up on the streets. I think Trudeau is on the right track when he talks about focusing on education for First Nations youth. That will give the upcoming generations the tools to know how to hold their leaders accountable, it will give them knowledge on how to make their communities better, and skills to help them navigate the 'white' world better. It's longer-term plan then 'move them off the reserve', but it's likely to result in a lot more long-term and overall success.

How? The more you educate someone the more depressed they become at their lot. It should be faced. Most remote reserves are in an irreversible decline. The old days are not coming back. The youth are not going to trap martens and smoke salmon, they are going to surf smartphones to see what the actual world is like, and then find someway of blocking out the reality that tells them it is not for them. Usually with a solvent of some kind.

[Guest]

The Osoyoos Indian Band here in Kim Country is an example of what first nations people can do when they have good leadership... My trip there last year really opened my eyes. My typical experience with first nations people is with the many local panhandlers here in Kim City, who are disproportionately aboriginal. It's quite depressing.

-k

I would suggest that location is as important as leadership to a band. I believe the Enoch Cree south of Edmonton are quite successful too.

[dialamah]

How? The more you educate someone the more depressed they become at their lot.

Why do you say that? The way I see it is that education opens one's mind up to both the possibilities and the way to achieve those possibilities. Smartphones and TVs only open you up to the possibilities, but does not provide you a path.

Nobody said trapping martens and smoking salmon was the goal, though it could be the hobby. I recently caught part of a documentary on a FN youth who is currently in university to become a lawyer, and how he's intertwining his heritage with "modern" solutions for his community.

And,incidentally, why should reserves have to be deserted in order for FN people to succeed?

[Guest]

Why do you say that? The way I see it is that education opens one's mind up to both the possibilities and the way to achieve those possibilities. Smartphones and TVs only open you up to the possibilities, but does not provide you a path.

Nobody said trapping martens and smoking salmon was the goal, though it could be the hobby. I recently caught part of a documentary on a FN youth who is currently in university to become a lawyer, and how he's intertwining his heritage with "modern" solutions for his community.

And,incidentally, why should reserves have to be deserted in order for FN people to succeed?

They don't, but as I said in my last post, they have to be located somewhere where success is possible. There are lots of reserves (going by my limited knowledge of the subject, admittedly) where such success just is not possible. You must have seen the recent news about remote northern reserves. Can you see any path to success for the people there, especially the youth, that includes sticking around? And why should they be expected to? Canada is full of people who adapt to a different way of doing things and thrive. Why can't they?

[dialamah]

Here's some info about the band Kim mentioned earlier; along with other things, education played an important part in turning this band around.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/clarence-louie-feature/article18913980/

hey have to be located somewhere where success is possible. There are lots of reserves (going by my limited knowledge of the subject, admittedly) where such success just is not possible. You must have seen the recent news about remote northern reserves. Can you see any path to success for the people here, especially the youth, that includes sticking around?

How are you defining 'success', exactly? And how do you know there aren't economic opportunities in those areas? I'm not the least bit business-savvy, but even I know that eco-tourism is a 'thing', and that touristing to remote areas is popular and expensive. That's just one idea, there may be other options neither you and I know anything about.

Even if the possibility of economic development truly is impossible, the people in those reserves still can't just be moved willy-nilly elsewhere. They have to *choose* to go, and it's unlikely that will happen unless they believe there is a place for them elsewhere in Canada and they have to have the knowledge and skills that will give them the confidence to succeed. That is what education can provide for them.

[Guest]

Here's some info about the band Kim mentioned earlier; along with other things, education played an important part in turning this band around.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/clarence-louie-feature/article18913980/

How are you defining 'success', exactly? And how do you know there aren't economic opportunities in those areas? I'm not the least bit business-savvy, but even I know that eco-tourism is a 'thing', and that touristing to remote areas is popular and expensive. That's just one idea, there may be other options neither you and I know anything about.

Even if the possibility of economic development truly is impossible, the people in those reserves still can't just be moved willy-nilly elsewhere. They have to *choose* to go, and it's unlikely that will happen unless they believe there is a place for them elsewhere in Canada and they have to have the knowledge and skills that will give them the confidence to succeed. That is what education can provide for them.

I would define success as employment and suicide rates being held at the national average. I don't know what opportunities exist on remote reserves but I can't imagine there are too many that don't involve natural resource exploitation. And I'm certainly not advocating moving people without their approval. I do think such things should be encouraged, though.

[Topaz]

IF it's true most band want to be self-govern, then those who against the government supporting them, would want feds to help them leave the governments pocket book? BTW, just like welfare, and all the other social programs that support ALL Canadians, would u want them gone too? Are u willing to give up your CPP,OAS or GIS?

[SunnyWays]

The Osoyoos Indian Band here in Kim Country is an example of what first nations people can do when they have good leadership... My trip there last year really opened my eyes. My typical experience with first nations people is with the many local panhandlers here in Kim City, who are disproportionately aboriginal. It's quite depressing.

-k

And there are many more like them........but until they start working together to acknowledge why some work - and why many don't - they will just continue to be what they portray - 600 individual bands who really don't give much of a crap about the ones that we always seem to hear about. Remember all the publicity (the CBC especially) that Thief Spence of the Attawaspikat band got? How much did her fellow "nations" help when things were going sour?

[dialamah]

A lot "us" who doing well don't give a crap about those of "us" who are having difficulty. Why should we demand that Natives behave differently?

[eyeball]

I wouldn't know.

I still don't see any real reasons why they are such bad ideas.

It's the racist manner in which the ideas are presented that's disgusting. If people can't see that it's because they're racists themselves.

[Guest]

It's the racist manner in which the ideas are presented that's disgusting. If people can't see that it's because they're racists themselves.

Yeah, says you. That doesn't make it so, of course. Some people see racism in every disagreement with their positions.

[Argus]

Yeah, says you. That doesn't make it so, of course. Some people see racism in every disagreement with their positions.

Especially if they're paranoid loony conspiracy mongers who find two syllables a bit hard to understand.

[Argus]

Take a trip to Winnipeg...it's sad in some parts of the city. Actually, you already were in rich Winnipeg (Edmonton).

I think if you come from one of those isolated reserves and find yourself alone in Winnipeg or Toronto the culture shock alone could cause you to drink. That's why I think we should try relocating entire small reserves. Hell, some of them are so small they could live in a single apartment building. Move them together somewhere in or near a city, preferably a smaller one, and give them help in adjusting.

[Argus]

There are supposedly over 600 "nations" out there.

The whole idea of calling a band of a few hundred people a 'nation' is progressive nonsense which not only serves to reinforce the idea they are outsiders and not Canadians, but makes it harder to reach agreements since the chiefs now consider themselves as national leaders of the same level as the prime minister. But I suppose it helps them justify why they make three or four times as much as the mayor of a similar small town.

[Smallc]

I think if you come from one of those isolated reserves and find yourself alone in Winnipeg or Toronto the culture shock alone could cause you to drink. That's why I think we should try relocating entire small reserves. Hell, some of them are so small they could live in a single apartment building. Move them together somewhere in or near a city, preferably a smaller one, and give them help in adjusting.

I'm in agreement to most of that (except for the Winnipeg part - parts of Winnipeg are almost completely aboriginal).

Some communities, aboriginal and non aboriginal, have to die, as they're economically unsustainable long term. They should be allowed to die organically, with the same supports in place from start to finish. People in Canada should not suffer, after all.

What makes it difficult when it comes to aboriginal people is that there's a history of forced relocation. That's why it needs to happen organically. The problem, of course, is that aboriginal communities have more support than non aboriginal ones, and there is less incentive to leave. They also have a higher birth rate. They aren't dying any time soon. I've come to understand that it's not as simple as it would seem from my perspective.

[Smallc]

The whole idea of calling a band of a few hundred people a 'nation'

I think a lot of it comes down to the 4th definition:

an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nation

We generally associate the word with country, but that isn't always correct.

[Argus]

I'm in agreement to most of that (except for the Winnipeg part - parts of Winnipeg are almost completely aboriginal).

Some communities, aboriginal and non aboriginal, have to die, as they're economically unsustainable long term. They should be allowed to die organically, with the same supports in place from start to finish. People in Canada should not suffer, after all.

What makes it difficult when it comes to aboriginal people is that there's a history of forced relocation. That's why it needs to happen organically. The problem, of course, is that aboriginal communities have more support than non aboriginal ones, and there is less incentive to leave. They also have a higher birth rate. They aren't dying any time soon. I've come to understand that it's not as simple as it would seem from my perspective.

The higher birth rate is actually problematic when it's accompanied by a lack of work and productivity. What we're essentially growing is more people to be on welfare How is that helpful to the country?

Between 1996 and 2006, the Aboriginal population grew by 45 per cent, compared with 8 per cent for the non-Aboriginal population. Between 2006 and 2011, the Aboriginal population further increased by 232,385 people, or by 20.1 per cent. By comparison, the non-Aboriginal population grew by just 5.2 per cent during that same time period.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/aboriginal-people-demography/