Another Terrorist Attack in Canada

[Guest]

Riiiight. And can you explain to me how anyone is going to tell a billion muslims that they're doing it all wrong? That their prophet was doing it wrong?

It is mainly liberal Muslims themselves who are working towards reforming the culture in their various nations though groups like Khudi. This has nothing to do with their religion. There are already progressive Muslim majority countries. They're not all Saudi Arabia, which the West unfortunately legitimizes with ally status due to our oil dependency.

There is no need to blame Islam, just as reforming brutal Christianity in the west didn't involve telling Christians they were doing it all wrong. The Biblical scriptures calling for the murder of non-believers still exist, yet when western culture embraced democracy and secular liberal values, rights and freedoms, the dictatorial and extreme power of the church faded.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Guest

[Argus]

3) I didn't see anyone saying that we need to ban muslims from entering the country, but taking in massive numbers from the world's leading terrorist hotbed is just stupid.

This has been my point for some time. Added to this the stats I've seen show that immigrants from that part of the world are among the worst economic performers in Canada - Europeans and Americans being the best - and I am baffled why this isn't basic common sense.

[Argus]

Here's some more of those blasted conservatives...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/islamist-protesters-call-for-sharia-in-pakistan-after-salman-taseer-blasphemy-row-a6956896.html

They have also denounced draft legislation in Punjab outlawing violence against women.

Did anyone tell Rona Ambrose about this?

You know, if they surrounded that crowd and then opened fire until there wasn't one left alive, Pakistan would make huge strides to eliminating its islamism problem.

[Argus]

They certainly are not. Still, I bet even amongst them you would get a wide range of what is considered acceptable.

Hitler liked dogs. I consider that acceptable. That doesn't mean I don't think that his other views make HIM unacceptable.

[Argus]

It is mainly liberal Muslims themselves who are working towards reforming the culture in their various nations though groups like Khudi. This has nothing to do with their religion. There are already progressive Muslim majority countries.

Name them.

[Guest]

Name them.

There are a bunch but Lebanon, Kosovo, Turkey, Albania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Kazakhstan and the other Muslim former Russian nations come to mind. There are more, but you could Google them if you like.

[hitops]

"God told me do it" is usually seen to indicate mental illness, not Christian terrorism.

How is "Allah told me to do it" any different?

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Because it is said in sound mind, with millions who sympathize or outwardly support the same view. Along with an entire infrastructure devoted to exactly the same thing, including perfectly sane educated people who use that education to make bombs.

[hitops]

That depends. If the murder was part of a campaign to achieve certain objectives by using fear and intimidation then absolutely its an act of terrorism.

Pretty much any murder fits into that definition. Latimer might be an exception.

[hitops]

You can't find any "plurality" of Muslims who support violence either.

And you can find plenty of violence in the bible too.

Remember this experiment disguising the Bible as the Quran?

https://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQ

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Two guys quoting Jewish scripture is not an argument against Christian doctrine. If you are trying to make an argument about Christian teachings, you should refer to those teachings.

Edited March 29, 2016 by hitops

[hitops]

Imagine that, you're demonstrating exactly my point. "Real Christians," whatever they are, believe one thing. Those who follow the exact letter of the book are not "real." You can see those variations. You can separate some Christians from others.

You'll have to clarify. What is the one thing? What book?

Yet all of Islam is the same to you and others, despite there being different sects of Islam and no central authority. It's tough to take someone seriously when they're so biased in their thinking that they're able to see variation within one group but not another.

I'm not arguing about variations. You can find variations about anything, with any number of people believing anything. I'm arguing on the basis of their scriptural texts, in order to having something static to evaluate rather than just attacking strawmen and guessing what 'most' or 'many' might believe. From the teachings (Koran) and actions/life (Hadith) of Mohammed, it is easy to make the case for terror. From the same of Christ (new testament), it is difficult if not impossible. The fact that some/many Christians live totally unlike Christ, and some/many Muslims totally unlike Mohammed, is quite beside the point. Imaging sending selected terrorists back in time. An ISIS member would be at home with Mohammed and his closest friends/ranking members. An LRA member would have no common ground with the disciples of Christ.

If you're a disenchanted young guy with an axe to grind, it's not hard to get from 'cut off the heads of the unbelievers" of the Koran, to actually doing so. But the same guy has a hard time getting there from "love your enemy, do good to those who hate you".

Edit: For the record, all is not "accomplished" until Christ returns again. It was not accomplished with the resurrection. Christians are still waiting for the "rapture" or "second coming," as the scriptures prophesize.

Could be, but how does this relate to any arguments about doctrine supporting/negating violence?

Edited March 29, 2016 by hitops

[Guest]

Not according to very many conservatives around here.

I doubt that many coservatives around here would be accepting of almost anything that that group find acceptable. But that kinda makes my point about diversity, surely?

[Guest]

Hitler liked dogs. I consider that acceptable. That doesn't mean I don't think that his other views make HIM unacceptable.

Of course. I wasn't talking about what I find acceptable. I was talking about the range of views you would find in that crowd.

[cybercoma]

Name them.

Gee, I don't know. Perhaps the hundreds of Muslims who are in active service with our and our allies' militaries, working to fight against the radicals.

[eyeball]

I doubt that many coservatives around here would be accepting of almost anything that that group find acceptable. But that kinda makes my point about diversity, surely?

I think they'd also find a lot to agree on; piety, patriarchy and submission to authority come to mind plus the usual conservative intolerance for things that bug conservatives like homosexuality, feminism, political politeness etc.

I have a lot of reasons for wanting better screening of refugees and immigrants too you know. Based on real things like character as opposed to race or culture. Of course I realize the impossibility of testing for conservatism but there is nothing stopping us from using public education to reinforce the progressiveness of our culture and it's intolerance for intolerant people.

[Guest]

I think they'd also find a lot to agree on; piety, patriarchy and submission to authority come to mind plus the usual conservative intolerance for things that bug conservatives like homosexuality, feminism, political politeness etc.

I have a lot of reasons for wanting better screening of refugees and immigrants too you know. Based on real things like character as opposed to race or culture. Of course I realize the impossibility of testing for conservatism but there is nothing stopping us from using public education to reinforce the progressiveness of our culture and it's intolerance for intolerant people.

A rare "I couldn't agree with you more"!

[Big Guy]

The Islamophobes have me convinced. I am going to keep a close eye to see that these Canadian Muslims do not commit terroists acts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_Muslims

[Guest]

The Islamophobes have me convinced. I am going to keep a close eye to see that these Canadian Muslims do not commit terroists acts:

Do you wanna buy a bridge?

Edited March 29, 2016 by bcsapper

[Argus]

There are a bunch but Lebanon, Kosovo, Turkey, Albania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Kazakhstan and the other Muslim former Russian nations come to mind. There are more, but you could Google them if you like.

None of those is anything like progressive by western standards. And most are getting steadily more conservative, not more liberal.

[Argus]

Of course. I wasn't talking about what I find acceptable. I was talking about the range of views you would find in that crowd.

I'm sure you'd find a range of views on many things. But I bet you'd find near unanimity that blasphemers and apostates need to be executed. As far as I'm concerned that outweighs anything else.

And even where there are more moderate people, and I know that even in a place like Pakistan there are moderate and intelligent people, you have to be aware there is a massive number of extremists there around them. If you must import people from that region you need to be very, VERY careful about who these people are. Pakistan, btw, is one of our major source countries for immigrants.

In Pakistan, religious extremism has spread like a virulent infection. “What do you do when the madness is not confined to radical mosques and madrasas, but is abroad among a population of nearly 200 million?” Salman Taseer’s son, Aatish, wrote in The New York Times. Mr. Taseer argues that this form of radical Islam is neither medieval nor traditional, but something utterly new: a reaction against “the modernity that my father, with his condemnation of blasphemy laws and his Western, liberal ideas, represented.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/extremists-dont-just-hate-the-west/article29409643/

Edited March 29, 2016 by Argus

[Guest]

I'm sure you'd find a range of views on many things. But I bet you'd find near unanimity that blasphemers and apostates need to be executed. As far as I'm concerned that outweighs anything else.

Well, I think the circumstances of their actually being there makes that a given.

[hitops]

I'm sure you'd find a range of views on many things. But I bet you'd find near unanimity that blasphemers and apostates need to be executed. As far as I'm concerned that outweighs anything else.

And even where there are more moderate people, and I know that even in a place like Pakistan there are moderate and intelligent people, you have to be aware there is a massive number of extremists there around them. If you must import people from that region you need to be very, VERY careful about who these people are. Pakistan, btw, is one of our major source countries for immigrants.

In Pakistan, religious extremism has spread like a virulent infection. “What do you do when the madness is not confined to radical mosques and madrasas, but is abroad among a population of nearly 200 million?” Salman Taseer’s son, Aatish, wrote in The New York Times. Mr. Taseer argues that this form of radical Islam is neither medieval nor traditional, but something utterly new: a reaction against “the modernity that my father, with his condemnation of blasphemy laws and his Western, liberal ideas, represented.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/extremists-dont-just-hate-the-west/article29409643/

Quite right. I mean, there are whole sections of foreign political parties or foreign governments that support religious violence. Whole infrastructures, schools, chemical and engineering labs. Large swaths of populations who celebrate or defend those actions. Many websites promoting, millions of 'regular' Muslims on twitter and facebook groups cheering and encouraging it.

Then some kook get drunk and shoots at his local office about something, claims he believes the bible, is immediately denounced by literally everybody of same religion, and we're told 'all religions are violent'. This degree of this false equivocation is beyond anything you can find on any topic.

Edited March 29, 2016 by hitops

[Guest]

. This degree of this false equivocation is beyond anything you can find on any topic.

It's pretty much the only argument there is on that side. If we didn't spend all this time trying to think of different ways of showing how futile it is, we'd have a much smaller site with far fewer posts. I'd be a much better guitar player.

Edited March 29, 2016 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

This is a two way bumper-car track you guys are talking about.

[eyeball]

I'd be a much better guitar player.

Bluegrass by any chance?

[Guest]

Bluegrass by any chance?

No, I don't have the speed. Blues, folk, etc.