TimG Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) Trump actively encourages his supporters to attack protesters, both in his actions and in his rhetoric - his security removes protesters, while Trump insults them on the way out; Trump expresses his desire to 'punch guys like that' in the face, and wishing for the good old days when those kind of people were taken out on a stretcher; he rewards his supporters who punch people by inviting them up on the stage and offering to pay their legal bills.We have a disease today where protesters (mostly left wing) have come to expect the people they harm with their protests to stand aside meekly while the protesters disrupt whatever has been going on. Trump turns this assumption on its head. Is this really wrong? Why should protesters be entitled to disrupt other people's events with impunity? This is not to say that some of Trumps followers have not taken the license too far (some are facing assault changes as they should) but it is a type of misrepresentation to comment on these events while ignoring the context: people trying to cause disruptions with protests. I thought conservative-types (which I am assuming you are) didn't like political correctness, and yet here you seem to be using it as a way to bolster your argument: Don't say the truth, because that makes you the same as the person you are accusing.There is "truth" and there is spin and misrepresentation. What I am saying is that people who misrepresent things and/or ignore context can end up fomenting hatred. I have never suggested that people should not criticize or speak the truth. Just that they should be accurate and complete when they do. Edited March 15, 2016 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I have never suggested that people should not criticize or speak the truth. Just that they should be accurate and complete when they do.While saying Justin Trudeau called Stephen Harper a racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 We have a disease today where protesters (mostly left wing) have come to expect the people they harm with their protests to stand aside meekly while the protesters disrupt whatever has been going on. Trump turns this assumption on its head. Is this really wrong? Why should protesters be entitled to disrupt other people's events with impunity? Seriously? People standing around quietly with signs, in a country where free speech is enshrined as a right, is disruptive enough that it's their fault if their attacked? That's ridiculous. Nonetheless, if peaceful sign-holding protesters are so unwelcome, then Trump can (and does) have them removed. There are two ways of doing this: Quietly, without any remarks by the leader. Or, Trump's preferred method: with insults and threats of violence, and regret that it's not acceptable to physically assault such people. This is not to say that some of Trumps followers have not taken the license too far (some are facing assault changes as they should) but it is a type of misrepresentation to comment on these events while ignoring the context: people trying to cause disruptions with protests. Which probably would not have happened if Trump hadn't indulged in rabble-rousing through insults and expressing his desire for violence against these protesters. It is ridiculous for Trump to stand on the stage, rousing up his supporters, and then for he - and his supporters - declare he has no responsibility for the actions of the people he 'leads'. People who want to lead should expect their words and actions to be reflected in their followers - it would be ridiculous if leaders expected their followers to behave opposite to what the leaders present. Even if Trump didn't realize the effect of his words word have, then at the very least he should be out there - after the fact - letting his supporters know that violence is not acceptable. But he's not. He busily blaming the protesters and offering to pay legal bills. There is "truth" and there is spin and misrepresentation. What I am saying is that people who misrepresent things and/or ignore context can end up fomenting hatred. I have never suggested that people should not criticize or speak the truth. Just that they should be accurate and complete when they do. And you too. Trump's behavior on stage, in public, leads directly to the behavior of his followers and the violence they exhibit at his rallies toward *PEACEFUL* protesters. To claim anything else is denying the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) -- Edited March 15, 2016 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Mayers Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I like Trudeau but agree he has a degree of the Nationalism I despise that exists in most politicians that actually get in power here. Trump's Nationality is a bit uncertain in that he seems to be pandering to whatever works. He has admitted to being pragmatic and to behave in a business mindset that optimizes success at whatever cost. Even bad press is good press to him. But I liked his candor and is also to some degree shared by Trudeau. Both have interesting personalities. Trudeau appears to be a 'dreamer' and so comes across as at least 'sincere' to his intentions. Trump is a no-nonsense speaker acting on the principle of being 'bold' regardless of whether it is or is not necessarily correct. The qualities of both have appeal and I don't buy the necessary fears of either. To me, all I am concerned of is to what degree their nationalism exists to which may or may not cause irreversible harm. I didn't approve of Trudeau Senior's approach to foster our "Multiculturalism " as this is still a Nationalistic belief. It is MORE open to others by contrast since it isn't a belief in just ONE single group's culture. Yet is is still limited to discriminate those external to his own preferred group interests [Anglican and French Catholics, and the Indigenous most prominently]. Justin, I believe, has inherited what his father set up and due to his own fortunes has had a secularized-type interpretation of his father's more strict intents for a Nationalistic take. But I agree with people here on both sides to some degree on each take. Justin is likely good for us and still compassionate for the Americans in this way; Trump would likely be BAD for us Canadians though potentially 'good' for Americans given his form of "Nationalism" is more 'patriotic'. His own apparent faults at being prejudice appear as more of a front and addiction to his own expected behavior. It is what gave him his success and why he would (and maybe, should) be arrogant or sincerely confident of his behavior. People prop him up as much as he himself and why he continues to maintain that behavior. But for Canadians, as with the Mexicans, politically and economically, this could be troublesome as regardless, he appears to be more strictly adamant to preserve American-only interests at ANY means. And this can be very dangerous for those he counts on to exploit for profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) If that video (the video that you have since removed) was supposed to show protesters behaving like thugs, I did not see it. I saw them passively resisting removal, and I saw one attack the red-shirted Trump supporter, but after the supporter made some kind of contact, just off camera. The security people themselves behaved more or less as expected. In any case, I was talking about the Trump supporters who physically attacked supporters, and how Trump's words have inflamed and led to that, while he takes no responsibility. But you've got your hero, as white, violent and racist as he is, so I'll let you get on with ignoring the reality that most of the rest of the civilized counties have moved beyond the Donald Trumps of the world. Edited March 15, 2016 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Example of different ways of dealing with protesters and hecklers: The right way - reduces the likelihood of violence; and Donald Trump's way, which almost guarantees violence: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-obama-hecklers_us_56e74fb9e4b0b25c91830ed0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 (edited) We have a disease today where protesters (mostly left wing) have come to expect the people they harm with their protests to stand aside meekly while the protesters disrupt whatever has been going on.Nonsense.They can speak freely too. Assaulting people is a criminal issue though. There are ways to respond that are appropriate, and ways that are not. Trump seems to be encouraging physical violence against protesters, trying to intimidate them and silence dissent. So protest will escalate, of course. Threat of physical violence can't be allowed to silence legitimate dissent. That would no longer be democracy. Trump knows nothing about how to be a democratic leader. He only knows how to give orders. We don't take orders from the people we hire (elect) to ruN democracies. We PAY their salaries to do what we hire (elect) them to do. Trump doesn't yet get that he can't just 'fire' the people who don't support him ... or "punch them in the face". He's certainly not the 'brightest light'. . Edited March 15, 2016 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) I would have to think that Just Trudeau and Donald Trump Juniour would have some similarities since one was born in 1971 and the other in 1977. Both were born to rich parents which has all kinds of benefits too, of course. But I don't see Don Jr. in politics much as of yet so don't think we can make much of a comparison on that front yet. Lets give it time to see what happens. Correct. My error. I honestly thought that Donald Trump, the candidate, was a "son of". I will change this thread title (if I can figure out how to do that). ===== Can someone on the PC Left explain to me this "Jnr" thing? I am reminded of the "gay marriage" vs "civil contract" dispute. What's the difference? A poster here, BlackDog, convinced me that gay marriage was a sign of respect. Is that the discussion point? Edited March 17, 2016 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 .... But for Canadians, as with the Mexicans, politically and economically, this could be troublesome as regardless, he appears to be more strictly adamant to preserve American-only interests at ANY means. And this can be very dangerous for those he counts on to exploit for profit. Then he would be consistent with many U.S. presidents past. A President Trump should be more concerned with American interests. The leaders of Canada and Mexico should make choices in their own nations' interests as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted March 17, 2016 Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 Correct. My error. ===== Can someone on the PC Left explain to me this "Jnr" thing? It's not a matter of being politically correct. It is a matter of being correct, period. I have added to this thread FYI: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25531-bush-snr-bush-jnr-trudeau-snr-trudeau-jnr-etc/ Apologies for being off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) It's not a matter of being politically correct. It is a matter of being correct, period. I have added to this thread FYI: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25531-bush-snr-bush-jnr-trudeau-snr-trudeau-jnr-etc/ Apologies for being off topic. msj, being correct? Uh, let's take this discussion to another thread. Marriage: Mayonnaise has whole eggs. Salad dressing does not. ===== I mistakenly thought that Donald Trump (current candidate for Republican nomination in 2016) was the son of a non-existent Donald Trump Snr. Indeed, Donald Trump (the candidate) had a father named Frederick Trump. Edited March 17, 2016 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Really? So if person A says, for example, "all people from this country are murderers, rapists and drug smugglers" and person B responds with "That's racist" then they are both equally fomenting hatred? Trump did not actually say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 Donald Trump is not "fomenting hatred"...he is fomenting votes. Seems to be working. Trump is not formenting hatred. He is taking advantage of what already exists and saying things ordinary Americans have been saying for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 18, 2016 Report Share Posted March 18, 2016 While your argument that people should attack policy, and not other people, has merit, you seem to want to use this to also avoid the fact that there are degrees of behavior, and to suggest that people should ignore what's happening because mentioning it is just as bad. Trump actively encourages his supporters to attack protesters, both in his actions and in his rhetoric - his security removes protesters, while Trump insults them on the way out; Trump expresses his desire to 'punch guys like that' There are two things here. First, there are disruptive protesters at almost every Trump event. I've never liked the idea of people showing up a a political speech given by someone they don't like to try to interrupt it. I don't blame him for getting irritated. This is a very obnoxious tactic usually employed by the Left, both in the US and in Canada. Second, no one has been hurt at a Trump event, despite this. The media being aghast at the 'violence' at Trump's events is wildly overblown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotary Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 There are two things here. First, there are disruptive protesters at almost every Trump event. I've never liked the idea of people showing up a a political speech given by someone they don't like to try to interrupt it. I don't blame him for getting irritated. This is a very obnoxious tactic usually employed by the Left, both in the US and in Canada. Second, no one has been hurt at a Trump event, despite this. The media being aghast at the 'violence' at Trump's events is wildly overblown. I guess you didn't see the black guy getting punched in the face by one of those redneck conservatives at the recent trump rally. Finally it seems trump's hired thugs did get their shit sorted out enough to lay criminal charges against the guy. Ah but ignorance is bliss as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I guess you didn't see the black guy getting punched in the face by one of those redneck conservatives at the recent trump rally. Finally it seems trump's hired thugs did get their shit sorted out enough to lay criminal charges against the guy. Ah but ignorance is bliss as they say. Trump takes significant offense to the media highlighting the absence of black supporters... so...... just last night at a Trump rally in Tuscon Arizona, in what looks like the only black guy in the crowd, we see a black, apparent Trump supporter, giving a protestor a whoppin' - big time! And Trump is adamant he's not fomenting any of this! #makingAmericaGreatAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I guess you didn't see the black guy getting punched in the face by one of those redneck conservatives at the recent trump rally. Nothing compared to the official response of Mayor Daley's police at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. His police attacked protesters, and a watching America would go on to vote Richard Nixon into office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Nothing compared to the official response of Mayor Daley's police at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago. His police attacked protesters, and a watching America would go on to vote Richard Nixon into office. I can't seem to find any accounts of either of the 1968 Democratic Party nominees acting like a xenophobic, hate-spewing, race-baiter... can ya help out here? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) I guess you didn't see the black guy getting punched in the face by one of those redneck conservatives at the recent trump rally. Finally it seems trump's hired thugs did get their shit sorted out enough to lay criminal charges against the guy. Ah but ignorance is bliss as they say. How many rallies has he had? How many hundreds of thousands of people have attended? How man have needed medical treatment? No one is interrupting Sanders or Clinton or Cruz and screaming insults at them and their supporters. Maybe if that happened every single rally some people would start to take offense. Edited March 20, 2016 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotary Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 How many rallies has he had? How many hundreds of thousands of people have attended? How man have needed medical treatment? No one is interrupting Sanders or Clinton or Cruz and screaming insults at them and their supporters. Maybe if that happened every single rally some people would start to take offense. I don't recall having heard any of the three others you mention barking out the racist, xenophobic, comments/insults that would foment such reaction to their campaigns. Trump has made his own bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotary Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Trump takes significant offense to the media highlighting the absence of black supporters... so...... just last night at a Trump rally in Tuscon Arizona, in what looks like the only black guy in the crowd, we see a black, apparent Trump supporter, giving a protestor a whoppin' - big time! And Trump is adamant he's not fomenting any of this! #makingAmericaGreatAgain Well at least this "supporter" shouldn't have to worry as Trump has agreed to pay such people's legal bills. With that and what he likely got paid to be in the crowd, a night in jail should be nothing more than a minor inconvenience. I can see a possible new Trump TV production emerging as well: something between Dallas and WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 I don't recall having heard any of the three others you mention barking out the racist, xenophobic, comments/insults that would foment such reaction to their campaigns. Trump has made his own bed. Trump can say whatever he wants....it's not like he is in Canada with hate speech laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotary Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Trump can say whatever he wants....it's not like he is in Canada with hate speech laws. He certainly can, and we are just happy about the increase in our property values based on his ability to use hate speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 He certainly can, and we are just happy about the increase in our property values based on his ability to use hate speech. Glad to help out...Lord knows Cape Breton could use the help. The coal industry has seen better times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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