Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Such a fickle partner makes the idea of investing even less tempting.

Canada is the fickle partner, because Canada is so knee jerk Anti-American now, even  as a Lockheed Martin shareholder, I'm happy to jettison Canada.

Maryllin Hewson is the CEO, she's not going to turn away customers, nor should she, but as her boss, I'm happy to be rid of Fifth Column America Hating Canada

[Dougie93]

Canada is just a launch pad for attacks against America now, as a shareholder, I say we at LMT need to provide solutions to America to defend itself from a hostile Canada.

So feeble and naive its governance. Canada should be considered to be ungoverned space now, lawless rogue state fallen under the undue influence of Beijing.

We should not be arming the Canadian government now that they have made themselves the enemies of freedom while bumbling into no man's land in Cold War Two.

[bush_cheney2004]

This procurement is going down just as expected....dysfunctional as ever in the finest Canadian tradition.   Contractors are backing out from the tender, knowing full well what kind of circle jerk they would be getting into.    Boeing already employs Canadians for F-18 E/F/G Super Hornet Block III production at least through 2026, and also supports the CC-177 Globemasters.     LockMart can put the squeeze on Canada's Tier 3 jobs as well if the F-35A is not chosen.

The Canadians are waiting for Trump to go away....and the Americans are waiting for Trudeau to go away.

[Dougie93]

Canada should not be a trusted partner, Americans are naive to trust Canada, America should kick Canada out of JSF program and block them from joining Super Hornet.

The number of air frames Canada would buy can easily be made up elsewhere, there will be upwards of 4000 F-35's in the end, Canada represents 65 to 88 of those, not make nor break.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada would still come a knockin' at the Americans door for more kit.   After years of renting heavy airlift, Canada cut in line and begged George Bush to divert USAF C-17 Globemaster production to Canada, as Harper needed to stop the bleeding in Afghanistan.  

Canada ran out of laser guided bombs and other munitions in Kosovo and Libya....where oh where to go shopping for more ?    The American depot !

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada would still come a knockin' at the Americans door for more kit.   After years of renting heavy airlift, Canada cut in line and begged George Bush to divert USAF C-17 Globemaster production to Canada, as Harper needed to stop the bleeding in Afghanistan.  

Canada ran out of laser guided bombs and other munitions in Kosovo and Libya....where oh where to go shopping for more ?    The American depot !

Five C-17's is f*ck all, anybody would have bought those, C-17's are at a premium now that the line is shutdown, Canada having them is like giving them to an enemy,  Canada does not defend American freedom, Canadians fear and loathe it.

Stop the FMS to Canada, Canada should not be given special access, let the Canadians buy from China, at least that would alert Americans as to the true nature of Canada now.

[bush_cheney2004]

Even when Canada buys from other nations, they still want American kit installed.   The "slightly used" British submarines that Chretien and the Liberals bought already had working Tigerfish/Spearfish torpedo and fire control systems....but nooooooooooo....Canada wanted to retrofit the American MK48 ADCAP heavyweight torpedo instead.

Must be frustrating....bitching about the Americans all the time while insisting on complete inter-operability and support from those damn Yankees.

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Even when Canada buys from other nations, they still want American kit installed.   The "slightly used" British submarines that Chretien and the Liberals bought already had working Tigerfish/Spearfish torpedo and fire control systems....but nooooooooooo....Canada wanted to retrofit the American MK48 ADCAP heavyweight torpedo instead.

Must be frustrating....bitching about the Americans all the time while insisting on complete inter-operability and support from those damn Yankees.

Classic case of penny wise pound foolish Canada, but it wasn't just the torpedoes.

Canada pulled out the entire British installed acoustic and fire control systems and replaced them with the American based one Canada had already been developing.

So the Type 2400 was this aging hull, which Canada then spent big money on by converting them to American standard, good money thrown after bad.

[Dougie93]

In fairness to the RCN, the choice they were given was no submarines or submarines on the absolute cheap, so the British Upholder orphaned fleet was the only thing on the market in that price range.

The CAF keeps trying to rebuild itself while the Government seeks to dismantle it, so that leads to these bizarre outcomes when the process splits the baby.

[Dougie93]

At the same time, laughably, Canadians still castigate the subs as being totally useless, which to Canada they might be.

But in terms of the weapons themselves, any SSK running on battery loaded with Mk.48 Mod. 7 CBASS III ADCAP 2, is a very dangerous animal, even to an SSN

Canada is bumbling perhaps, but SSK's are inhrently dangerous deterrents and the ADCAP 2 is the most capable torpedo in the world, short of maybe the French F21 which is bleeding edge.

Mk.48 is in continuous spiral development tho, Mk.48 is always being improved along the way, which,  with the economies of scale of buying American, makes it the best.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The ironic thing is, Canada doesn't even have the courage of its own convictions.

If Canada wasn't a Company Town run by archaic industrial entrenched interests who exploit the failed state of Confederation by way of cronyism and corruption, Canada could break the mold.

If Canada followed its own military genius, Marshall McLuhan, Canada would simply have a Civil Defence Force to protect infrastructure, and otherwise only fight Information War.

This would put Canada at the bleeding edge, no need for submarines, those will never fire a shot in anger on Canada's behalf anyways,

[Dougie93]

Canada is basically in the same sort of position that Switzerland is in.  Terrain is the invincible defender.  

The terrain is what makes it impossible to subdue by conventional force.

Notice how the Communists understand this, Beijing is not going to invade Canada with tanks, Beijing is subjugating Canada by Information War.

Only the Hegemon's need rule the waves, Canada is well inside the American Freedom of Navigation, but China is bypassing that to get in under the radar.

Information War is when you seize and hold demographic terrain rather than topographic terrain

Once you turn the people, they will invite you onto their land, to sell you canola and potash and whatnot, they will enslave themselves in the end.

Render unto Chinese Caesar, the Information Weapon at his disposal is American IOU's

King Dollars redeemed in the Canadian market, to bring it to its knees.

China is money bombing Canada, and the targets are the corrupt entrenched interests who run the Company Town by central planning.

Eager to sell their own people down the river for a buck. Well, hundreds of billions of bucks, none the less, freedom is priceless, thus sold cheaply at any rate.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

F-35 cockpit view, formation flight over the Big Apple with HM Royal Air Force Red Arrows.

God bless America, God save the Queen, American Hegemony,  Empire of Liberty.

United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement Virtual Nation State F*ck Yeah.

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

F-35 cockpit view, formation flight over the Big Apple with HM Royal Air Force Red Arrows.

God bless America, God save the Queen, American Hegemony,  Empire of Liberty.

United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement Virtual Nation State F*ck Yeah.

 

Talk about a circle jerk...

[Dougie93]

Here's a more dynamic display in cockpit view,

Miami Beach, let's go. baby!

 

[Dougie93]

On 3/16/2017 at 1:55 PM, Army Guy said:

Are you saying that the super hornet has more range than the F-35...because that is not what both companies are advertising, nor is the Canadian airforce stats for it's aircraft....

CF-18 stats are is 330 km on a combat radius, and a 3330 km ferry range no wpns

F-35 stats are 1407 km combat radius air to air config and 1158 kms for interdiction mission.....with a ferry range of 2220 km on internal fuel no wpns....

Note that these numbers would increase if the added external fuel tanks....

The way F-35 works, the equivalent of the Hornet's three external fuel tanks are carried internally, 18,500 lbs of fuel is the same as a Hornet with three drop tanks.

The F-35 can however maneuver to the limit of its performance with full fuel and weapons internal, Hornet cannot with weapons and fuel hung under the wings.

This is how F-35 has better performance, better when combat loaded, the Hornet's stats are airshow display configured, the F-35's stats are real world combat conditions.

The external tanks for the F-35 are for ferry only, to deploy transcontinental, would not usually be deployed in combat, so not actually a big priority at the moment, part of the spiral upgrade.

The F-35's performance improves as it burns off internal fuel, with the fuel on board it would have at the merge, it's over 1.1 to 1  thrust to weight, under 85 lbs per square foot wing loading.

The F-35 would not optimally merge, it would hit and run, but if forced to merge, or in an advantaged position, it's got plenty of envelope for ACM

The way 4th Gen fighters like F-16 and F/A-18 actually fight, is that both sides can see each other, so everybody flies at each other, launches their missiles, then turn 90 degrees and drop chaff.  The 90 degree turn is called "beaming", it fools pulse doppler radars.

So it's like the gunfight at the OK Corral, and most of the missiles are wasted because they have to be launched at ranges which cause them to run out of energy by the time they get to where the target was when you launched.

F-35 avoids this attrition warfare, it gets to a position to launch before the other guy can see it, and so launches the missile closer, high energy all the way, this is called the No Escape Zone (NEZ) for the AMRAAM.

There's no need to dogfight, a dogfight simply means maneuvering to get behind the other guy, F-35 can do that, but it doesn't have to.  It extends beyond the furball, sees what's going on from outside of the engagement zone, picks people off, hit and run, flying sniper.

With the AN/AAS-37 EODAS staring hemispheric IRST including Automatic Geolocation, its like an all seeing eye detecting everything out to the horizon in all directions. With the Sensor Fusion Engine and Multimode Advanced Data Link (MADL) the pilot has a God's Eye View of everything further out.

So you can't sneak up on them, you can't pick them off because they will detect you long before you get into range to shoot.

This way they don't have to fly in close formation to watch each others backs as with the Hornet, they can spread out and operate singly, but data linked still, to attack from multiple vectors and intervals.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Love it...the best part about these threads is more F-35 video porn !

Over 400 F-35 variants have now been delivered to U.S. and partner nations...Israel has even used them to send Syria a special message.  Israel's F-35s just laugh at current Russian air defense systems.

This is the aircraft (F-35A) that DND wants, but it has to play the usual political games with Ottawa.

I hope PM Stephen Harper laughs his ass off when the contract is finally signed.

 

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is the aircraft (F-35A) that DND wants, but it has to play the usual political games with Ottawa.

The Canadian CF-35A variant would differ slightly from the USAF F-35A,  in that we now offer a stealth drag chute pod which mounts between the tails,

"Nordic" profile for operating from icy runways in places like Norway and the Canadian Arctic.

[bush_cheney2004]

Norway already has the drag chute on its F-35s.....Canada just has more foot dragging.

 

 

[Dougie93]

Also note that the USAF has christened the F-35 with its unofficial or pilot's callsign.

F-16 Fighting Falcon is more commonly known as the Viper.

F-35 Lightning II is now known as the Panther.   It's thick, quick and slick.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

In terms of realpolitik, what Canada has actually employed the CF-18's for most, is Coalition Warfare,

NATO enforcement of UNSC resolutions.

Canada flexes its muscles in solidarity with Multilateralism.

Gulf War. Bosnia. Kosovo. Libya, Iraq.

The F-35 keeps Canada in that mission, at the tip of the spear, first night of war, a startegic force multiplier in the big leagues

Which is a card the GoC likes to play, about once every seven years on average for the CF-18's

The rest of the time they do the NORAD tasking and air policing in Europe, which of course the F-35 can do as well.

[Dougie93]

In terms of Close Air Support and interoperating with ground forces, contrary to popular myth, F-35 does that better, again, by fundamentally altering the concept of operations.

It's not about having a big gun on the plane, although F-35 has one if needed.

It's all about Information Warfare now.

3 PPCLI was attacked Blue on Blue by an USAF F-16 at Tarnak Farms while they were using it as a practice range to test fire weapons,

1 RCR was attacked Blue on Blue by an USAF A-10 on Op Medusa, with its vaunted GAU-8

The reason in both cases was pilot disorientation and lack of situational awareness as to where he was and where the friendlies on the ground were.

F-35 with Auto Geolocation and Sensor Fusion again provides the pilots with Gods Eye View of everything around them and keeps track of where the friendlies are.

Instead of getting down in the weeds, the F-35 remains above the fray and dellivers smart and precise munitions on call, like the GBU-39 SDB or MBDA Brimstone

Can also strafe with a gun in a pinch, 25x137mm NAMMO APEX rounds, but that's basically as backup, or to shoot a fleeing target.

It can also act as an Airborne Forward Air Controller, directing other joint fires onto targets, like precision guided artillery for example.

All Seeing Eye in the Sky, Death From Above.  Information Weapon.  Not a Bomb Truck. Flying Sniper.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Other Canadians have rightly pointed out that since whatever Canada buys will have to serve for 30 - 40 years, it makes little sense to invest in older generation aircraft, even with some stealthy lipstick like the F-18E Block III.   DND is not going to get another swing at this, so they will pull hard for F-35A.

Comparisons to the U.S. procurements are meaningless since the American have always had a mixed bag with multiple platforms, purposely so with a hi-low designs and programs.   The U.S. military mothballs and scraps more aircraft each year than Canada will buy.

Super Hornets are really quite different from legacy Hornets, a stop gap measure from the early 1990's when the A-12 program was canceled by Dick Cheney (SecDef).  F-18 E/F/G uses GE F414 engines, which came from the A-12's F404.   Gripen E uses the same GE F414 (American) engine...legacy Hornets use the original F404.   

I was working on the A-12 program back in the 80's at Honeywell Defense when the cancellation came down...we couldn't believe it...but the massive cost overruns were even too much for Washington.   Things got so bad in the interim we had to use F-14s as bomb trucks because the A-6 Intruders were so long in the tooth...F-14 Tomcats became Bombcats.

But the money kept flowing for the Joint Strike Fighter program...budgets (and schedule) be damned.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

But the money kept flowing for the Joint Strike Fighter program...budgets (and schedule) be damned.

The cost of the program is more about scale, 2400+ 4th Gens loaded up with all the bells and whistles would not be much of a savings.

The sheer scale of the JSF program is what makes the F-35 the cheapest option overall, already down to $100 million heading for $85 million per unit cost.

Typhoon is $200 million. Rafale is $120 million  F-16E/F export price is $100 million.   Advanced Super Hornet export price is $100 million.

In terms of operating costs, again, economies of scale, the bigger the fleet the more economical, F-35 will end up like F-16, world best seller, upwards of 4000 airframes in the end.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada selected the lower cost (cheap) U.S. Navy strike fighter instead of F-15 or F-14....but the F/A-18 Hornet is only a 5,000 hour airframe.    No worries says Canada, we will just perform numerous upgrades and pray that other NATO partners don't bitch too much about the obsolete datalinks, comms, IFF, and targeting pods.  It got so bad that CF squadrons could not perform certain missions and attack profiles.  

Canada hates...absolutely hates to spend money on new military hardware, and the forces get to suffer for it.