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Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?


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4 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

I don't know what all the hubbub is about the F-35 helmet, why deep sea divers have been using those helmets for a century.

I'm sure the NHL also has a few extra helmets they can lend.

From: https://www.wired.com/2016/06/course-f-35-comes-400000-augmented-reality-helmet/

... it combines noise-canceling headphones, night vision, a forehead-mounted computer, and a projector ... The pilot can see through the base and walls of the aircraft, thanks to six cameras mounted outside the F-35. .. It labels objects in her field of view with distance, bearing, speed, and altitude... the plane’s sensors are constantly looking for threats and keeping track of nearby wingmen, projecting relevant info onto the inside of the helmet’s visor.... the military’s been using helmet-mounted displays since the 1980s. The key difference with this dome protector is the way it collates and visualizes info from all the plane’s systems.

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3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

This was a Conservative boondoggle.  Thankfully, it has been put to rest...  move on.  

 

What, you mean the Liberals have actually managed to set up an open competition, ran it in a completely unbiased manner, and picked the plane that truly is the best selection both in terms of price and local viability? When did that happen?

Last time I head, the Liberals were setting up boondoggles of their very own.

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3 hours ago, The_Squid said:

This was a Conservative boondoggle.  Thankfully, it has been put to rest...  move on.  

 

You mean for the project they originally didn't get us involved in, or the one the delayed for political reasons because of a pacifist opposition who would prefer we bought nothing at all, but will settle for second or third or fourth or fifth best just to keep up appearances?  What a stupid comment, conservative boondoggle, by what measure exactly?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Trudeau government and RCAF have requested briefings from the U.S. Navy for how to operate two different strike fighters at the same time.  

Not a good sign....Canada should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time without U.S. help.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/super-hornet-vs-f35-1.3962728

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On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎06 at 1:35 PM, ?Impact said:

I don't know what all the hubbub is about the F-35 helmet, why deep sea divers have been using those helmets for a century.

Well then instead of advertising your ignorance go read what fighter pilots have to say about jets with blind sports requiring you to depend on a computer program to see.

 

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5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trudeau government and RCAF have requested briefings from the U.S. Navy for how to operate two different strike fighters at the same time.  

Not a good sign....Canada should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time without U.S. help.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/super-hornet-vs-f35-1.3962728

Canada is completely subordinate to the US and its our choice. Nothing stopped us from buying Tornado fighter jets in the past. Nothing is stoping us from buying the ideally suited Gryphen fighter. What you have is  extensive American lobbying in Ottawa based on the amount of collateral work that they claim they can bring into Canada as well as the pressure the US military industrial complex can place on Canada considering 80 to 90% of our economy is controlled by US head offices who own branch plants in Canada.

We are and have always chosen to be an economic branch plant of the US. We made that decision. It was not forced on us-it was welcomed by lazy, short sighted civil servants seeking re-election and not thinking long term as to our best interests. The F18 upgrade is too costly a craft for Canada. Its not what we need. The upgraded  F18 is not a bad jet but it will be as expensive in the long run as the F35.

The F35 as many have predicted won't get off the ground. Its a fiasco no matter how people try spin the craft's virtues. No fighter pilot in their right mind will depend on a virtual reality helmet to fly a plane that is otherwise blind. Who the phack designs an aircraft where the pilot can't rotate his head and have a clear view. Its insanity. No pilot will rely on  computer to save his life-he'll rely on his own gut instinct and eyesight, particularly his side or collateral vision not some computer..

The ideal fighter for Canada is the Gryphen and the Liberals and Tories both are gutless in divesting Canada of uts heavy dependency on US aircraft. and making that decision. Its inexcusable.

We are far better getting Gryphens and taking the money saved and spending it on German naval vessels and US naval vessels, etc. Canada needs a light interceptor not a fighter. Why buy 1 upgraded F18 for the same cost as 5 to 8  Gryphens. It makes no sense. Canada needs interceptors and its navy needs the balance of savings badly.

We have no navy. Its unable to patrol our coasts. Fire the whole lot of them. Its time to get me to Ottawa. First thing I slash the government's size in half. I take any money and spend it on the Gryphens and navy and then 50% of the rest to pay down the deficit.

Enough. I would send the entire Trudeau cabinet into exile on the Baffin Islands except for Grant Garneau who I would place in Science and Technology. I would probably leave the Attorney General as well. That Foreign Minister munchkin after listening to an old interview with her, I might be inclined to keep her as Trade Minister. Otherwise out got the rest. They are all carcasses.

I would leave Dion in Europe. As for McCallum I would send him for rehab, that's it.

My first visit would be to see Melania Trump and tell her its o.k. she can come visit me anytime she wants without Donald.

On my state visit to the UK I only want to see Harry and go and get drunk and eat fish and chips.

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2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Military purchases are political poison in Canada. The pols should try and put all this stuff at arms length from themselves.

How could they possibly do that when the priority of every large military purchase is economic stimulation for government ridings?

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7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trudeau government and RCAF have requested briefings from the U.S. Navy for how to operate two different strike fighters at the same time.  

Not a good sign....Canada should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time without U.S. help.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/super-hornet-vs-f35-1.3962728

Not a good sign at all, this is almost a done, deal, in fact Minster of National Defense has said they won't release a price tag until after a deal has been signed.....Sounds like the liberal parties transparency policy just went out the window.....No competition, no consultation, no info being released to public .....according to boeing in the interview they say US naval info on pricing is accurate, they quote 115 to 120 million per Aircraft, not including wpns and ammo, nor training,.....sounds transparent to me.....even if we did eliminate the F-35 , what of the other aircraft in the pile.....gone....who needs a competition any ways....

The liberal party is racking them up faster than the media can print the stories.....oh well another 2 1/2 years to go can't wait to see what happens tommorrow......I also can't wait to see about any new news on the ship building program and what the VCDS got suspended for .....maybe he found out the liberals bought 24 new Canoes from canadian Tire....

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

Why buy 1 upgraded F18 for the same cost as 5 to 8  Gryphens.

I'm not sure what numbers you are using. From what I can tell you might be able to get 2-3 Gripen's, but not 5-8. On the operational side it would be better, with maybe 4 flight hours in the Gripen for the cost of a single flight hour in the F18 E/F.

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22 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Not a good sign at all, this is almost a done, deal, in fact Minster of National Defense has said they won't release a price tag until after a deal has been signed.....Sounds like the liberal parties transparency policy just went out the window.....No competition, no consultation, no info being released to public .....according to boeing in the interview they say US naval info on pricing is accurate, they quote 115 to 120 million per Aircraft, not including wpns and ammo, nor training,.....sounds transparent to me.....even if we did eliminate the F-35 , what of the other aircraft in the pile.....gone....who needs a competition any ways....

The liberal party is racking them up faster than the media can print the stories.....oh well another 2 1/2 years to go can't wait to see what happens tommorrow......I also can't wait to see about any new news on the ship building program and what the VCDS got suspended for .....maybe he found out the liberals bought 24 new Canoes from canadian Tire....

Wait a sec, isn't $120 million per aircraft in the range of F 35 costs?

 

Theme song of this Liberal Government: Send In The Clowns.  Lets bring back Chretien.  He was a thief, but not wilfully stupid.

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1 minute ago, overthere said:

Wait a sec, isn't $120 million per aircraft in the range of F 35 costs?

 

Theme song of this Liberal Government: Send In The Clowns.  Lets bring back Chretien.  He was a thief, but not wilfully stupid.

OH it gets better lockmart has already come out and said that within the next 5 years the cost of an F-35 will be 80 to 95 million each....but all of that would have come out in a competition....which we don't need any more....liberals changed the rules and laws.....now a bunch of civilian politicians sit around and pick military equipment  that looks cool or they seen on TV, either that or someone has stuffed american dollars into someones pockets....

Canadian Air force are sitting around HQ's with their mouths dropped open, asking WTF just went on.....and we wonder why our purchasing of major equipment is so beyond repair....that now everyone just says fu** it....we like that one we'll take 65.....

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4 hours ago, Rue said:

Canada needs a light interceptor not a fighter. Why buy 1 upgraded F18 for the same cost as 5 to 8  Gryphens.
 

Possibly because, despite your claim, you can't buy 5-8 Gripens for the price of one F18. (Wikipedia lists the fly-away cost of the Gripen at 30-60 million. Cost of the F18 Super hornet: 98 million. At best they would only get 2 Gripens for the price of 1 Super Hornet. And that doesn't include any additional costs, such as pilot training.)

Possibly because it can carry much less in the way of weapons. And despite people who claim that Canada should only be concerned about its own airspace, that's an isolationist view which would be rejected by all major political parties (all of which have at one time or another supported using our planes in foreign conflicts.) So, buying something incredibly cheap but limiting now would unfairly hobble future governments (be it Liberal, Conservative or NDP) who may want to use or armed forces in a situation like Bosnia.

It makes no sense. Canada needs interceptors and its navy needs the balance of savings badly.

Here's the thing... Canada is actually pretty well off when compared to the rest of the world. We have a stable government, our economy is not that bad off, and we have a long history of constructive engagement in various conflicts (such as our role in various UN missions.) We could probably equip all branches of our armed forces if we had the political will.

Situations DO arrive in foreign countries where military intervention would be beneficial (e.g. Bosnia). As one of the more prosperous countries in the world, the decent thing to do would be to try to contribute in a positive way when innocent people are threatened.

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1 hour ago, overthere said:

Wait a sec, isn't $120 million per aircraft in the range of F 35 costs?

Actually, costing out planes is a pretty tricky thing to do... You've got the basic cost of the plane (which can vary... The first F35As that were produced were > $200 million each, but future batches will all be < $100 million.), but then you have to factor things like any modifications that might be done (for example, when we bought the CF18s, we added an extra identification light that wasn't on the stock F18s, which of course increases cost), whether the initial price includes any sort of spare parts or guarantees from the manufacturer in the short term, and the long term cost of maintenance.

When you hear a cost like $120 million (which differs so much from other estimates), you need to consider whether that price involves just the plane, or the plane+spare parts.

So many people have claimed the F18 SuperHornet is cheaper, and in the short term it might be (or might not...), but it all depends on what we are getting with the purchase. Long-term, I suspect it will be more expensive, based on the issues of maintaining a fleet of planes for which replacement parts will become scarce after production ceases.

 

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5 hours ago, segnosaur said:

Possibly because, despite your claim, you can't buy 5-8 Gripens for the price of one F18. (Wikipedia lists the fly-away cost of the Gripen at 30-60 million. Cost of the F18 Super hornet: 98 million. At best they would only get 2 Gripens for the price of 1 Super Hornet. And that doesn't include any additional costs, such as pilot training.)

 

No. You see a Gryphen can take all the weapons from an existing F18, a Super F18 can not. You did not factor that in. You also did not factor in that it takes 5 men to service a Gryphen twice as many if not more to service an F18 Superhornet. You did not factor in the price of fuel or the fact a Gryphen can land on ice and engage in short take off and landing, two things a Super F18 can not do and which adds to its cost.

You also didn't figure in the amount of hours a Super F18 must stay on the ground being fixed compared to a Gryphen. This all should be calculated into the price.

Maintenance, up-keep, compatibility with existing equipment, all are price factors you did not consider.

What you also have not considered is the Gryphen can be far more cheaply updated to fly another 40 years the F18 maybe 20

The price by the way you quote for a Super F18 is not a fact. Its a guess. They do not know the price, they said so. It keeps going up and its almost now the same price as the F35. So yes you could get somewhere beween 3-8 Gryphens operating for the cost of 1 F18 SuperH.

The SuperH is also going out of production after its made for Canada which makes parts to maintain it sky rocket. You haven't factored that in either.

As a I said the updated F18 is not a bad jet. But at best its a suped up F18. Its upgrading is not spectacular by any means.

The US Navy has always liked it. It not what Canada needs. Canada needs a fighter capable of landing on ice and engaging in short take off and laning and can use very few maintenance crew. The Gryphen is far more ideal a fighter as it can intercept just as well. Canada needs an interceptor. The likelihood of it shooting own a Russian fighter jet is minimal. Its need to escort them out of  Canadian airspace and to patrol the coasts. If the Russians truly sent in their fighter craft the US would counter with its Raptor and our Gryphens would have a secondary role. The US won't sell Raptors to anyone but its air force. There is no point pretending a Super F18 is a Raptor. Its not. Its not a state of the art Eurofighter or Rafaele jet fighter either.

 

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This ought to be here. The Post claims these new F-18s will only fly for 12 years and the military warned against buying them.

In addition, Defence department officials had earlier warned against buying an interim fighter jet. But the report containing those warnings, which had been on the department’s website for more than a year, was quietly removed after the Liberal government announced its Super Hornet purchase.

The Defence Research and Development Canada report recommended against the purchase of such “bridging” aircraft to deal with gaps in capability. “The costs involved with bridging options make them unsuitable for filling capability gaps in the short term,” according to the report. “Any short-term investment results in disproportionately high costs during the bridging period.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/liberals-admit-interim-super-hornet-jets-may-only-fly-for-12-years-despite-costing-billions

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Something vaguely related to Canada's fighter jet procurement...

Boeing (the company that builds the F18 Super Hornets that the Liberals want to purchase) has joined a coalition of U.S. companies who all favor the imposition of an import tax in the United States. (If applied to Canadian-made goods, it will end up hurting our exports, and ultimately our economy.)

Ok, this isn't specifically about the F35 or Boeing, but I wonder if that would make any Liberals reconsider their plans to purchase the F18. (After all, if Boeing is going to harm Canadian jobs, it may decrease sympathy for them.)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-companies-tax-idUSKBN15H2VV

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7 hours ago, Argus said:

The Post claims these new F-18s will only fly for 12 years and the military warned against buying them.

 

 

Not a surprise, I've been saying that for years.........the time to have purchased Super Hornets was two decades ago...

 

 

On 2/2/2017 at 1:59 PM, segnosaur said:

So many people have claimed the F18 SuperHornet is cheaper, and in the short term it might be (or might not...), but it all depends on what we are getting with the purchase. Long-term, I suspect it will be more expensive, based on the issues of maintaining a fleet of planes for which replacement parts will become scarce after production ceases.

 

 

Again, I've been saying that for years......its all about economies of scale, likewise, the stages of the production cycles. Unlike the F-35, the Super Hornet will also have an added FMS levy of upwards of 15%. Also, with the forthcoming opening up of NAFTA, I wonder what that will do to any industrial offsets with Boeing?

 

On 2/2/2017 at 1:47 PM, segnosaur said:

Possibly because, despite your claim, you can't buy 5-8 Gripens for the price of one F18. (Wikipedia lists the fly-away cost of the Gripen at 30-60 million. Cost of the F18 Super hornet: 98 million.

 

The quoted price of the Gripen is decades old and from the first block versions.......the Gripen NG, with an actual radar and avionics suite that we'd require for NORAD, is actually the same price (or more) then the Super Hornet and the full rate production F-35A.

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