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Britain Sets Date for EU Referendum -- Brexit


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I thought the Remain camp was the elitist with the most to lose while the Exit camp was the working class who was not affected by all this? Funny how you can distort things any way you want to suit your agenda.

I'm confused as to what you're confused about. Clearly, the big businesses, the financial institutions, the shareholders, and so-on, have been the big losers. Yes, the elites have suffered most in the aftermath of the vote, and the "elites" had by far the most financial interest in "Remain".

Which is why I'm perplexed why the progressives have been so staunchly behind "Remain". Since when do progressives care about the elites? Every other free trade agreement, the progressives fight tooth-and-nail against. This one, the progressives seem unusually concerned about stock prices and exchange rates. What's the difference? What makes this different from Trans Pacific Partnership?

And even funnier that you continue to know what 'progressives' are thinking even when it's pointed out to you that from the very start, before the crash, immigration was only a factor for the Exit camp.

The idea that "the racists won" is the only reason I can imagine as to why progressives are mad about this.

Progressives don't care about the net worth of the wealthy, or stock prices, or the ability of big corporations to find tax loopholes.

-k

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I know this has already been exhausted to death in this thread but it's good to revisit this one more time...

How old people have screwed over the younger generation - in three charts

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/how-old-people-have-screwed-over-the-younger-generationin-three-charts--W1AA_n4nEb

Yes!

I brought it up too. All those retirees are sure pissed about those immigrant job thieves.

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The EU is the Titanic........the UK simply got onto a lifeboat first.

Even if Remain had won, I can't imagine that massive change wouldn't have resulted. Surely they can't just go on and pretend everything's cool.

-k

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The idea that "the racists won" is the only reason I can imagine as to why progressives are mad about this.

Progressives don't care about the net worth of the wealthy, or stock prices, or the ability of big corporations to find tax loopholes.

-k

I'll meet you halfway on this. It does suck that Exit was based so much on anti-immigration sentiment, but you're dead wrong about the second part.

This is not about wanting tonnes of immigrants, it's about appreciation of stability.

No, we're not all Starbucks baristas and many of us do have portfolios that we care about. I work in the finance industry and I can assure you, there are many progressives making lots of money.

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Sure it will take time but the reality is the average British holiday maker will have to fork in more to their favourite holiday destinations in Spain

What you fail to take into consideration is that the people who voted to leave are the least likely to be able to afford to take long vacations in Spain.

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August, you don't get it. (to phrase it in Augustese.)

Tim gets it.

Until such time as the factories of China or Mexico start delivering their products to your kitchen free of payment, a comparison to sunlight is completely unwarranted.

If the cost of a widget drops thanks to cheap Chinese manufacturing, then our buying power increases. But if the average Canadian income drops due to the offshoring of jobs, then the benefit of this increased buying power isn't as compelling as it first appears.

-k

Tim doesn't get it. Neither do you, Kimmy. Nor Argus.

By your logic Kimmy, a world without the Sun would be better. We would all have jobs, working hard to have light/heat since the Sun would no longer provide either for free.

====

If the cost of a widget falls to zero, then so much the better. Heck, the cost of a GB has done just that. What's the phrase? "Bob's your Uncle."

Edited by August1991
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Why did those stock prices fall so much anyway?

Ultimately because of panic, because people were taken by surprise, and most importantly, because they assumed the markets would plummet, so wanted to get out as fast as possible - which of course, helped make them plummet. But it's a temporary thing, in most cases. That money isn't gone. For every sale someone got to buy the stock cheaper than they would have expected. And the stock prices will recover, if not next week then over the coming months.

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I agree that it's not black or white - I just disagree completely with Kimmy's take that Remain is upset about 'rejection of multiculturalism' when the issue is so much bigger than that.

I agree fully.......many with the remain side favored the devolution of EU member States own sovereignty, forgoing their own nationalism in favor of centralized control of the economy and in turn, their populations.........The EU was able to do (for several decades now?) what both Hitler and Napoleon failed at.......the writing has been on the wall since 1992, they made the tv movie during the Greek debt crisis, so the EU's collapse should come as no surprise.......

As to why some favored remaining, I would assume, like anything, change scares people.......the EU, and before that the Common Market, have been apart of the British make-up for decades, so there are generations that haven't known any different. Inversely, those old enough to remember Britain prior to the Common Market, will remember a place and time that had just won a World War but was in steady decline with the divestment of the Empire and retrenchment back to the Suez.........to say nothing of high unemployment, rationing and a general malaise brought upon by post war British socialism ( "Old Labour") .

Going forward without the EU, the British are once again in the captain's chair of their own destiny........they managed for centuries pretty well without the Continent telling them what they can't do.

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But here is the reality that will bite some hard...The migrant poles have for long done a great work in UK and helped revitalise the economy in an otherwise competitive market. Now if I am an owner of a small business I am interested on who can deliver me the job at the lowest cost and most productive way. No love lost there if some of my British compatriots may not be able to deliver the same good at the rate a Pole can do. That's what keeps the business competitive....

But there are a lot more workers than employers. You're making the case as to why employers would love to see lots of people coming over from poor countries to work harder and cheaper. You're not making the case that the British workers ought to be thrilled with that - and they weren't. Just about every economist I've read says that influxes of new workers, as in immigrants, depresses wages, especially for lower skilled workers. Why on earth would you suppose those workers would be enthusiastic about that!?

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Tim doesn't get it. Neither do you, Kimmy. Nor Argus.

By your logic Kimmy, a world without the Sun would be better. We would all have jobs, working hard to have light/heat since the Sun would no longer provide either for free.

====

If the cost of a widget falls to zero, then so much the better. Heck, the cost of a GB has done just that. What's the phrase? "Bob's your Uncle."

If the cost of a widget falls to zero, then nobody will make widgets anymore.

The cost of sunlight remains at zero because the sun doesn't request payment for its services.

The Chinese factory workers, the factory owner, the American firm that contracted that factory to build their product, the people who transported it across the ocean, the distributor who sells... all these people insist upon being paid for their services.

No pay, no widget.

What are you going to pay them with after all of this labor-saving and cost cutting has eliminated your job? Sunshine?

-k

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Tim doesn't get it. Neither do you, Kimmy. Nor Argus.

Consider, August, that it's you who doesn't get it.

The vote had nothing to do with the cost of widgets. It had to do with people believing their communities were becoming overwhelmed with foreigners, with people feeling that foreigners in a far land were dictating their laws, and with people who felt left out of both the decision making and the economic benefits of those decisions.

You can talk about how great cheap imports are all you want but that doesn't make it all right when it's YOUR job which is lost because of those imports, or because of a flood of eager, desperate to work foreigners.

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Okay. Some of you are apparently bad at picking stocks too, and bad at foreseeing clearly foreseeable storms on the horizon.

You're right about that, but it doesn't change the fact that Kimmy is talking out her behind when she says the anger is because of wanting more immigrants.

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You're right about that, but it doesn't change the fact that Kimmy is talking out her behind when she says the anger is because of wanting more immigrants.

The universal anger of the progressives on this is not because of their sudden affinity for London's reputation as a world finance capital. Honestly, why do you care, why is there such anger on the part of mostly progressives in Canada, about the British having made this decision? Because their economy might suffer? Who cares!? You might shake your head and think it was a bad decision, but the universal anger by the progressives isn't because of financial issues, but because they saw the rejection of the EU as a rejection of internationalism, of their insistence that everyone embrace foreign immigrants.

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The referendum means nothing, Parliament must negotiate the exit from the European Union. Who is going to do that? As I said earlier, the government will fall and UKIP will need to run on a platform of leaving the union because no other party will.

Its not over until the fat lady sings.

I agree. What one government has done another government can do - or undo. As the repercussions of a possible Brexit become more clear, the public sense (and especially those millions who chose to not vote) can change very quickly. There is nothing written in stone that locks the next PM and/or government into processing a leaving.

If Scotland and Northern Ireland start to show signs of independence and thereby staying in EU, the attitudes may indeed shift once the reality, both social and financial, become clear.

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The universal anger of the progressives on this is not because of their sudden affinity for London's reputation as a world finance capital. Honestly, why do you care, why is there such anger on the part of mostly progressives in Canada, about the British having made this decision? Because their economy might suffer? Who cares!? You might shake your head and think it was a bad decision, but the universal anger by the progressives isn't because of financial issues, but because they saw the rejection of the EU as a rejection of internationalism, of their insistence that everyone embrace foreign immigrants.

I love how you and Kimmy are so good at reading the minds of 'progressives'.

And you're way out of line if you think Britain's economy is the only one that will be affected therefore nobody else should be concerned.

That's the level of discourse you're bringing? Seriously?

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I'll meet you halfway on this. It does suck that Exit was based so much on anti-immigration sentiment, but you're dead wrong about the second part.

This is not about wanting tonnes of immigrants, it's about appreciation of stability.

No, we're not all Starbucks baristas and many of us do have portfolios that we care about. I work in the finance industry and I can assure you, there are many progressives making lots of money.

That's good for you. I mean, certainly Bill Gates is a huge progressive as well, and he lost billions of his net worth due to the stock market volatility yesterday.

I don't purport that progressives are all a bunch of broke-ass hippies. However, I do believe that concern for the less-fortunate-- those on the lower rung of society, those less-educated and less skilled and with fewer employment options-- is one of the defining characteristics of being progressive. Those are the people hardest hit by free trade deals, because those are the people who get forced into head-to-head competition with workers in less developed countries, plunging us further into the so called "Race To The Bottom".

You say that your own concern over the Brexit has nothing to do with UK immigration issues and everything to do with concern over the financial fallout... ok, do you feel similarly about TPP? If I did a poll of how Bernie Bros and Bernadettes feel about the Trans Pacific Partnership, and how they feel about the Brexit, do you think they'd feel similarly about both?

Based on what I've been reading around the internet, I strongly doubt that. People who are vehemently against the TPP seem surprisingly upset about the Brexit. I have been wondering why that is.

-k

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I love how you and Kimmy are so good at reading the minds of 'progressives'.

And you're way out of line if you think Britain's economy is the only one that will be affected therefore nobody else should be concerned.

That's the level of discourse you're bringing? Seriously?

Britain's economy has little influence on ours. This could actually wind up being good for our economy if we reach a separate trade and sercice agreement with the UK.

And for all you complaining that people are judging progressives you haven't come up with any reasons for their indignation and anger over this.

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You say that your own concern over the Brexit has nothing to do with UK immigration issues and everything to do with concern over the financial fallout... ok, do you feel similarly about TPP? If I did a poll of how Bernie Bros and Bernadettes feel about the Trans Pacific Partnership, and how they feel about the Brexit, do you think they'd feel similarly about both?

-k

EU is more than just a free-trade agreement. Ridiculous starting point, but if you must - there is no direct negative global impact in not ratifying TPP in the same way as there is with Brexit so of course I will view them differently. You're comparing apples and oranges.

For the Remain side it was always about finances but you continue to say you know better than them what they're thinking.

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If the cost of a widget falls to zero, then nobody will make widgets anymore.

.....

And instead, widget makers will be able to use their time for other things.

Kimmy, Argus, do you have a cell phone? Why? (How many payphone repair guys lost jobs because of your phone?)

Do either of you have slide rules? Do you ride horses - or drive cars? What happened to the wage of typists?

=====

Kimmy, if the cost of a taxi driver falls to zero, is that a bad thing? Ordinary people understand such stufff.

==================

To return to the theme of this thread, IMHO this Brexit is important in 3 ways:

1. Key economic thought: The UK always maintained the floating pound.

2. Norway and Switzerland were never part of the EU. (Like Canada/Quebec in North America.)

3. Enough of elitists telling us what to to do.

Edited by August1991
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Britain's economy has little influence on ours.

Directly no, indirectly this whole thing does though.......namely with a plummeting Euro, caused by instability in Europe for the foreseeable future, the Euro itself will no longer be seen as a safe alternative to the greenback. With that more international money will be invested into USD, ergo increasing its value, well ours does the exact opposite.

This could actually wind up being good for our economy if we reach a separate trade and sercice agreement with the UK.

Not at all, we're still a commodity based economy..........if anything this will further weaken the Canadian economy.

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The universal anger of the progressives on this is not because of their sudden affinity for London's reputation as a world finance capital. Honestly, why do you care, why is there such anger on the part of mostly progressives in Canada, about the British having made this decision? Because their economy might suffer? Who cares!? You might shake your head and think it was a bad decision, but the universal anger by the progressives isn't because of financial issues, but because they saw the rejection of the EU as a rejection of internationalism, of their insistence that everyone embrace foreign immigrants.

Argus, I have to agree with you in this post of yours.

With that said, I suspect that many ordinary English/Welsh people had no patience for the Euro-babble, the same crap we in Quebec (in French) have heard from R-C (Radio-Canada) and people in English-Canada have heard from the CBC. And then these same media people say that ordinary people are "bigots/racists/ignorant".

In Scotland and Northern Ireland, it's a different identity issue.

Edited by August1991
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