Bush Snr, Bush Jnr, Trudeau Snr, Trudeau Jnr, etc.

[August1991]

In all honesty, I started to use the designation of "Bush Jnr" because I realized that what we write here may exist for centuries. And I remember being confused about John A. Macdonald and John S. Macdonald, or Mackenzie King was the grandson of William Lyon Mackenzie. (Henri Bourassa, BTW, was the grandson Louis-Joseph Papineau.)

Or what about Paul Martin? (I think I referred to one as a Jnr but his father as a Snr. I suspect even the Toronto Star referred to Paul Martin Snr.)

In the US, there is John Adams and John Quincy Adams, both became presidents.

=====

For future readers of our threads, students of history, when it's not clear which Louis or Hannover was king, it helps to know that Louis XIV is different from Louis XVI and George III is not George I; and Trudeau Snr is not Trudeau Jnr.

Historians, in reference to British 18th century politics, now refer to Pitt the Elder and Pitt the Younger. In their time, people referred to Pitt - as people in Montreal sadly refer to the Le Reine Elizabeth.

So, in 2015, should we refer to "Trudeau" or "Trudeau the Younger" in our posts here? In deference to clarity, and history students in 2058 preparing for an exam, I prefer Trudeau Jnr and Trudeau Snr.

[For your cheat sheet in 2058: Bush Snr evicted Saddam Hussein from Kuweit; Bush Jnr evicted Saddam Hussein.]

Edited February 3, 2016 by Charles Anthony
added tags

[Michael Hardner]

As has been pointed out, Trudeau Jr. is not correct use of English since you use "Junior" as a suffix when the first AND last name match. However, you have convinced that there's no ill will in use of the name. I suggest 'Trudeau the Younger' since it reminds me of your familiarity with political traditions.

[waldo]

As has been pointed out, Trudeau Jr. is not correct use of English since you use "Junior" as a suffix when the first AND last name match. However, you have convinced that there's no ill will in use of the name. I suggest 'Trudeau the Younger' since it reminds me of your familiarity with political traditions.

and this needs it's own thread!

as has also been pointed out, Justin Trudeau does not identify himself as Trudeau Jr. Of course not... it makes no sense to do so. As has also been pointed out... yet, apparently, is being ignored, if one actually consults the MLW rules (as quoted below), given Justin Trudeau does not identify himself as "Trudeau Jr.", it begs the question how this is allowed! Please advise - thanks in advance:

Do not use diminutives or character substitutions in proper names that are not recognized by the original person to whom the reference is being made. For example, Prime Minister Stephen Harper does not identify himself as Stevie therefore, it is unacceptable to identify him as Stevie. Likewise, Paul Martin does not identify himself as Mr. Dithers, therefore, it is unacceptable to identify him as Mr. Dithers. In the discussion forums, such infractions will be considered as third-party insults.

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[Topaz]

I call Justin...Justin or the PM, just like I call Harper, Harper or the PM, why is this so much a debate?

[poochy]

Btw, is ok for Waldo to shorten peoples screen names, for example, from keepitsimple, to simple? Perhaps there is some loophole that allows this behavior for a select few while they claim it's ever so wrong for the PM to be referred to as Jnr.

"MLW member Simple, your hyperbole is not the measure of reality! And now the strawmanStruts! I trust going forward you might actually try to substantiate your statements, yes?"

Special rules for special people.

[msj]

Then report it FFS.

[cybercoma]

Then report it FFS.

Exactly. People think the mods read every last post on this forum. That's hilarious.

[Charles Anthony]

Thank you for this OP, Aug91.

Folks,

If you want to address any of the living Bushes as BushJr, go ahead. If you want to address any of the living Trudeaus as TrudeauJr, go ahead. Without any other mitigating factors, we reject any prejudice that such use of generational suffixes is automatically derogatory or pejorative.

.... it begs the question how this is allowed!

Simple: we are making an exception to this rule and we are at VERY MUCH at peace with it.

For future readers of our threads, students of history,

Life will carry on without anybody ever even thinking of asking to see birth certificates for any of these dudes.

[BubberMiley]

Henceforth, I shall call Hardner "Charles Anthony Junior." It's not malicious. It just avoids confusion. I know they have different names and all, but I'm at peace with the decision.

[waldo]

Thank you for this OP, Aug91.

Folks,

If you want to address any of the living Bushes as BushJr, go ahead.

even the living Bush... uhhh, senior? Even him? Even Jeb... Jeb is now a "Junior"?

.

If you want to address any of the living Trudeaus as TrudeauJr, go ahead. Without any other mitigating factors, we reject any prejudice that such use of generational suffixes is automatically derogatory or pejorative.

you just don't decide to arbitrarily use a generational suffix... there are rules in how they apply. When the respective persons across the generations DO NOT HAVE THE SAME NAME, there is absolutely no basis for using a generational suffix. Justin Trudeau is not the same name as Pierre Trudeau - ya think?

"without any other mitigating factors"? You mean like the 10 or so MLW members, across 3 separate threads now, who have come forward against the use of "Junior, Jr Jnr" when referring to Justin Trudeau... declaring it improper and/or derogatory/denigrating. Would you not consider that an "other" mitigating factor?

.

Simple: we are making an exception to this rule and we are at VERY MUCH at peace with it.

an exception based on what? It doesn't follow proper generational suffix usage and Justin Trudeau does not self-identify as "Trudeau Junior/Jr./Jnr".

what is the basis for your "making an exception"? Please clarify - thanks in advance.

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[Bob Macadoo]

Henceforth, I shall call Hardner "Charles Anthony Junior." It's not malicious. It just avoids confusion. I know they have different names and all, but I'm at peace with the decision.

So all I have to say is "I'm at peace with the decision" after what I say and its all cool? Great I've been holding back....

[cybercoma]

Thank you for this OP, Aug91.Folks,If you want to address any of the living Bushes as BushJr, go ahead. If you want to address any of the living Trudeaus as TrudeauJr, go ahead. Without any other mitigating factors, we reject any prejudice that such use of generational suffixes is automatically derogatory or pejorative. Simple: we are making an exception to this rule and we are at VERY MUCH at peace with it. Life will carry on without anybody ever even thinking of asking to see birth certificates for any of these dudes.

There isn't a single person who said it's "automatically derogatory." A whole lot of people have mentioned that the context matters.

[cybercoma]

Henceforth, I shall call Hardner "Charles Anthony Junior." It's not malicious. It just avoids confusion. I know they have different names and all, but I'm at peace with the decision.

They hold the same position, so this will be useful for distinguishing between the two.

[poochy]

Then report it FFS.

O sure, then again i didn't report anyone for changing Trudeau's name, or Harper's, even though it was ubiquitous, but suddenly poor Trudeau needs to be protected, and at least one of those leading the charge is the biggest offender of the snide, back handed, drive by insult, to other members, yet no one else notices, this Trudeau thing though, that's is a big deal. It's funny that the others concerned about poor Mr Trudeau's honor completely missed the obvious when it came to the behavior of one of their own, otherwise, being so concerned about such things, they clearly would have reported it. They can't all be hypocrites, right? O and fyi, i asked, if i was ok, perhaps when you report things you get an answer and immediate action, we can't all be so lucky FFS. I could also ask, is it ok if we curse at each other so long as we stick to abbreviations? Such as GFYS?

[waldo]

Btw, is ok for Waldo to shorten peoples screen names, for example, from keepitsimple, to simple? Perhaps there is some loophole that allows this behavior for a select few while they claim it's ever so wrong for the PM to be referred to as Jnr.

MLW member Simple has been referred to as such for years by many MLW members; I certainly wasn't the one to initiate it, nor have I ever read the member raise any related concern, nor have I received any raised issue from board authorities in that regard. As ever, your fixation - 'the waldo'.

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[waldo]

Such as GFYS?

GFYS - 'good for youse' would hardly seem to rise to the level of anyone's concern

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[waldo]

clarification please: does Trudeau Junior/Jr/Jnr refer to Alexandre (Sacha) Trudeau or to Justin Trudeau?

.

[WestCoastRunner]

It makes absolutely no sense to me that MLW would allow Jr to be used to call out JT. It is clearly derogatory.

[WestCoastRunner]

I would challenge anyone here who addressed JT as Jr to say it was nothing more than removing the chance that anyone would assume they were talking about Pierre.

[On Guard for Thee]

I would challenge anyone here who addressed JT as Jr to say it was nothing more than removing the chance that anyone would assume they were talking about Pierre.

And you'd be right. Even Ray Charles could see through that. I suspect it has to do with the righties licking their wounds, and they will likely continue to do so ad nauseum. So far playing childish name games is all they got. Might keep them occupied for a while though.

[August1991]

I would challenge anyone here who addressed JT as Jr to say it was nothing more than removing the chance that anyone would assume they were talking about Pierre.

Challenge accepted, and I intended nothing more.

Proof? I have usually referred to Bush Jnr on this forum (to remove any chance that I was referring to his father). I note, in passing, that despite my myriad posts referring to Bush Jnr, I don't recall ever receiving a query/reprimand from a moderator about my reference to Bush Jnr rather than "Dubya".

clarification please: does Trudeau Junior/Jr/Jnr refer to Alexandre (Sacha) Trudeau or to Justin Trudeau?

Cripes. If Sacha Trudeau (Justin's brother) ever runs for federal PM (or becomes one), I guess I'll have to refer to him as Trudeau III. And if Jeb Bush is a viable candidate after South Carolina (2016 primary for future readers), then I guess he'll be Bush III - rather than Jeb!

For me, the question is clarity. On this forum, IMHO, we discuss mostly Canadian politics (and mostly from a white-bread, English-Canadian perspective) and the discussion (when it's good) covers the map - and history. We have had several Macdonalds and Mackenzies in our past. Bourassa is another family name.

Trudeau? We've had the father and son as federal PM. As the English teacher explained: who is whom? (A reference to) Snr and Jnr makes things clear. That's it, that's all.

Edited February 5, 2016 by August1991

[Smallc]

And you'd be right. Even Ray Charles could see through that. I suspect it has to do with the righties licking their wounds, and they will likely continue to do so ad nauseum. So far playing childish name games is all they got. Might keep them occupied for a while though.

Don't forget (false) selfies. They have those too.

[On Guard for Thee]

Don't forget (false) selfies. They have those too.

Boy talk about getting themselves stuck in the mud over nuttin' Hopefully the various attempts to explain what selfies actually are may at least attenuate that nonsense at least a little.

[waldo]

Challenge accepted, and I intended nothing more.

Proof? I have usually referred to Bush Jnr on this forum (to remove any chance that I was referring to his father). I note, in passing, that despite my myriad posts referring to Bush Jnr, I don't recall ever receiving a query/reprimand from a moderator about my reference to Bush Jnr rather than "Dubya".

do you think it's a consideration whether a father and son themselves use the designate Sr // Jr? Because you do know George H.W. Bush doesn't refer to himself as Sr and George W. Bush doesn't refer to himself as Jr. By the definition of generational suffixes, there is a case to use the suffixes for the George's... but not as a name proper; rather, as a 'nickname' because their full names are not identical. Identical full names is the requisite for properly using generational suffixes.

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Cripes. If Sacha Trudeau (Justin's brother) ever runs for federal PM (or becomes one), I guess I'll have to refer to him as Trudeau III. And if Jeb Bush is a viable candidate after South Carolina (2016 primary for future readers), then I guess he'll be Bush III - rather than Jeb!

that was asked in line with the statements from theMod who said, "If you want to address any of the living Trudeaus as TrudeauJr, go ahead"; If you want to address any of the living Bushes as BushJr, go ahead. Of course, neither of those statements makes any sense relative to proper generational suffix use or in relation to how the respective living Bush's or living Trudeau's identify themselves. Your arbitrary suggestion that you would use "III" has absolutely no foundation... it's simply more of what you're inventing to satisfy your own... your own, what?

.

Trudeau? We've had the father and son as federal PM. As the English teacher explained: who is whom? (A reference to) Snr and Jnr makes things clear. That's it, that's all.

and it's too difficult for you to simply refer to them by their actual names... the names they use/used... the names they went by and not a name variation that suits your whim? If you really worried about a chance you might confuse someone... your suggested "who is whom" uncertainty, are you not able to use instead the names Justin Trudeau and Pierre Trudeau... a whopping 4 character difference - 4 characters! Again, by the proper defined use of generational suffixes, you have absolutely no basis for using the Jr. ad Sr. suffixes when referring to either, respectively, Justin or Pierre Trudeau. Notwithstanding, of course, what real likelihood is there to be discussing the long distant (long dead) father's government in the same context as the more recent (living) son's government... and, again, even if the rare occasion arose, you couldn't simply use their proper full names?

and... I suggested your "whim" above, which affords you consideration that you actually have no intent to demean/denigrate in using the Jr. designation. You surely must appreciate that (over 3 separate threads now), there has been a most significant number of MLW members raising concern/objection over your want to (and the moderator's "at peace with"), use of Jr. for Justin Trudeau & Sr. for Pierre Trudeau; neither is warranted, neither is wanted!

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[bush_cheney2004]

Hey, does this mean we can refer to Queen Elizabeth II as Elizabeth Jr. ?