Texas Leads The Way

[Argus]

It's a good thing than that Texan CHL holders are less likely to be convicted of a crime when contrasted with the general public writ large.

Not exactly a statistical shock given you can't get a licence if you have a criminal record.

[Argus]

If somebody gets shot stealing someone else's wallet it's their fault. 100% Don't steal it, don't get shot.

What about if you're 14 and get shot after ringing someone's doorbell and running away?

[Derek 2.0]

Those numbers are nonsensical. Surely you can fairly easily recognize that.

Can you refute them with evidence?

[Derek 2.0]

Not exactly a statistical shock given you can't get a licence if you have a criminal record.

My point exactly, and refutes the suggestions that legal concealed (or open) carry will result in shoot outs in the streets etc........As demonstrated in Texas, CHL holders have a lower rate of criminal activity than the general public.

[Argus]

Can you refute them with evidence?

Come on. Do you honestly need evidence that those numbers are ridiculous?

[Derek 2.0]

What about if you're 14 and get shot after ringing someone's doorbell and running away?

Social Darwinism........the Castle Doctrine has been a dictum of legal systems based on English law since the 1600s.

What if said 14 year jumped a fence into said yard and was attacked by a dog?

Edited January 3, 2016 by Derek 2.0

[Derek 2.0]

Come on. Do you honestly need evidence that those numbers are ridiculous?

Sure, I provided a source, that includes it's sources of data........you claim said data is "nonsensical", so either you'll have no problem in supporting your claim or your suggestion is baseless.

[Guest]

What about if you're 14 and get shot after ringing someone's doorbell and running away?

If you steal the doorbell, too bad for you.

[Argus]

Social Darwinism........the Castle Doctrine has been a dictum of legal systems based on English law since the 1600s.

The castle doctrine isn't interpreted to allow shooting children in the back as they run away from ringing your doorbell in any civilized country on the planet.

What if said 14 year jumped a fence into said yard and was attacked by a dog?

If you're suggesting gun owners are as intelligent as dogs then I'd suggest they should be collared and leashed when off their property, and under no circumstances permitted to vote.

[Argus]

Sure, I provided a source, that includes it's sources of data........you claim said data is "nonsensical", so either you'll have no problem in supporting your claim or your suggestion is baseless.

The numbers are ridiculous and based on a single survey of 5,000 people, and they have no correlation whatsoever to police or crime reports.

[Wilber]

By that logic, all police should wear plain clothes and carry concealed..........what, after all, is the benefit of them not?

Are you seriously equating trained police officers with Joe Shmo who picked up a gun at the local gun fair? The police are there to show a presence of law and order in society. A shmuck packing a gun is just some shmuck packing a gun. And yes, their uniform does make them a target which is one of the reasons they receive the kind of training they do. My son is an ERT member and those guys are constantly training to deal with hostage situations and how to make sure they shoot the real perps when under pressure and not the hostages.

Huh?

The last two major mass murders involved assault style weapons by heavily armed perps. Joe Shmo will just have what he normally walks around with.

Strike the idea of plain clothes officers, it would never work.

Plain clothes officers don't advertise the fact they are armed and they have experience and training no civilians have.

Maybe, but again, by that logic, all police should wear plain clothes/open carry well on duty to prevent them from becoming a primary target?

Already covered that.

Really simple question......if you were fixing to rob a corner store somewhere in Wichita Falls (The Surrey of Dallas), would you target the store where you know the clerk is armed, made evident by the Big Iron on his hip, or the store where you think the clerk in unarmed (Still playing roulette in a State that embraces concealed carry)?

I would like to live in a world where every convenience store clerk doesn't have to be armed. In your world, everyone would need to be armed. Most of the civilized world moved passed that point a couple of hundred years ago and with one major exception, has no desire to go back.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Wilber

[Big Guy]

Boys love their toy guns and old boys love their real guns. Boys love their toy airplanes and toy tanks and toy boats. Old boys love their fighter airplanes and battle tanks and aircraft carriers. I believe that most adults put up with them as an unfortunate reaction to safety issues.

I see no joy or love or satisfaction in machines built to kill people.

[Derek 2.0]

The castle doctrine isn't interpreted to allow shooting children in the back as they run away from ringing your doorbell in any civilized country on the planet.

Texas penal code:

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B ) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B ) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

If you're suggesting gun owners are as intelligent as dogs then I'd suggest they should be collared and leashed when off their property, and under no circumstances permitted to vote.

Not the slightest, the teen that plays at mischief on other people's land is gambling with his or her own life......Darwinism, and if their addiction to air is suddenly stopped, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Derek 2.0]

Are you seriously equating trained police officers with Joe Shmo who picked up a gun at the local gun fair? The police are there to show a presence of law and order in society. A shmuck packing a gun is just some shmuck packing a gun. And yes, their uniform does make them a target which is one of the reasons they receive the kind of training they do. My son is an ERT member and those guys are constantly training to deal with hostage situations and how to make sure they shoot the real perps when under pressure and not the hostages.

No, the lack of training of police officers in the United States results in a great many being shmucks with guns and badges. And of course, the majority of concealed carry holders, to obtain their permits, require training provided by local law enforcement.

The last two major mass murders involved assault style weapons by heavily armed perps. Joe Shmo will just have what he normally walks around with.

So? More Americans are killed each year with blunt objects than rifles, and the majority of gun crime in the United States is committed with handguns, namely cheapo "Saturday Night Specials" and former police firearms (wheelguns) sold publicly.

Plain clothes officers don't advertise the fact they are armed and they have experience and training no civilians have.

Sure they do, but how many plain clothes officers are killed each year by other officers in a shootout due to confusion?

I would like to live in a world where every convenience store clerk doesn't have to be armed. In your world, everyone would need to be armed. Most of the civilized world moved passed that point a couple of hundred years ago and with one major exception, has no desire to go back.

Nice attempt at projecting my beliefs, but no. I feel citizens should have the same legal rights to protection of their person (and families) as we afford to the protection of insured paper money.

[Wilber]

Nice attempt at projecting my beliefs, but no. I feel citizens should have the same legal rights to protection of their person (and families) as we afford to the protection of insured paper money.

And what exactly does that mean?

[Argus]

Texas penal code:

Nothing in there applies to shooting children running away.

And to be frank, anyone who thinks that's okay has no business being any near a firearm.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

...And to frank, anyone who thinks that's okay has no business being any near a firearm.

Who's Frank ? Anyway, after you shoot 'em, drag the body back into the house !

[Derek 2.0]

And what exactly does that mean?

Does anyone question arming armored car personal transporting money?

[Derek 2.0]

Nothing in there applies to shooting children running away.

I just quoted and cited the law, from the Texas state government website...........disproves your claim.

to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime,

or criminal mischief during the nighttime;

[Wilber]

Does anyone question arming armored car personal transporting money?

How enlightening.

[Derek 2.0]

How enlightening.

You are opposed to personal defense with a firearm, and in the case of the OP, the open carry of firearms by private citizens.........do you oppose warmed over rent-a-cops with openly carried guns guarding money that is insured anyways? This isn't the Wild West with bandits robbing stagecoaches you know.....

[Wilber]

You are opposed to personal defense with a firearm, and in the case of the OP, the open carry of firearms by private citizens.........do you oppose warmed over rent-a-cops with openly carried guns guarding money that is insured anyways? This isn't the Wild West with bandits robbing stagecoaches you know.....

I give up.

[Argus]

I just quoted and cited the law, from the Texas state government website...........disproves your claim.

or criminal mischief during the nighttime;

If you think ringing a doorbell and running away constitutes criminal mischief then someone should be showing up at your place to take your guns away.

[Derek 2.0]

If you think ringing a doorbell and running away constitutes criminal mischief then someone should be showing up at your place to take your guns away.

It doesn't mater I think, that is the law as written (and cited) in Texas, which clearly proves your bleeting wrong.

[ReeferMadness]

Per this source, that provides the sources for their data:

These statistics are outdated (produced when crime rates were much higher than they are today) and the methodology for creating them was highly suspect.

In 1992, Gary Kleck and Marc Getz, criminologists at Florida State University, conducted a random digit-dial survey to establish the annual number of defensive gun uses in the United States. They surveyed 5,000 individuals, asking them if they had used a firearm in self-defense in the past year and, if so, for what reason and to what effect. Sixty-six incidences of defensive gun use were reported from the sample. The researchers then extrapolated their findings to the entire U.S. population, resulting in an estimate of between 1 million and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year.

In 1997, David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, offered the first of many decisive rebukes of Kleck and Getz’s methodology, citing several overarching biases in their study.

These sorts of biases, which are inherent in reporting self-defense incidents, can lead to nonsensical results. In several crime categories, for example, gun owners would have to protect themselves more than 100 percent of the time for Kleck and Getz’s estimates to make sense.

Gun owners grasp these false claims like they claim their 'cold dead fingers' would grip their guns if someone tried to take them. If you're going to own a gun, at least do so without lying to yourself or anyone else why you're doing it.