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Islamophobia in Canada


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1 hour ago, Bubble Burst said:

I respect Muslim dissidents and Muslims who are trying to reform the medieval ideology.

Many were well on the road to reforms but then we came along and severely messed with their world and retarded a development that other religions were experiencing. I don't  think you have any respect for Muslims at all as evidenced by your sense the Islamic world is entirely at fault for everything that's going sideways in it. Oh we'll, it's not like you don't have lots of allies around here who feel the same way.

Edited by eyeball
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5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I don't  think you have any respect for Muslims at all as evidenced by your sense the Islamic world is entirely at fault for everything that's going sideways in it.

I have not expressed any view about who is to blame about that. I don't really care. All I care is that I want to be able to exercise my right of speech about criticizing an ideology and minimizing the risk of being randomly attacked.

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17 minutes ago, Bubble Burst said:

I have not expressed any view about who is to blame about that. I don't really care. All I care is that I want to be able to exercise my right of speech about criticizing an ideology and minimizing the risk of being randomly attacked.

Your right to free speech does not include a right to ignorance and then a claim that you, sitting in that world of ignorance, have a right to express your free speech, without being called on your dismal knowledge about this specific topic.

Free speech comes with responsibilities, first and foremost, bring yourself up to speed on the topic you wish to opine upon.

 

Edited by hot enough
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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Muslims are just bad, by some people, and they will find all kinds of ways to justify that.

Like reading opinion polls showing what they think of blasphemers and apostates?

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23 hours ago, Rue said:

May I take up your first words and use them as a basis to make some rhetorical questions to try make a point. Thank you because I am removing them out of the context you used them for which I appreciate.

Can anyone name a Muslim country that has treated another Muslim country or non Muslim country fairly? Can anyone  think of a Muslim country  accepted or acknowledged its collective responsibility for a war or conflict, ever?

The selective take on history that Muslim countries are  victims is with due respect just that selective and it leads I would argue to a false narrative and a rewriting of history to falsely portray Muslim states as victims of the West. Muslim states vicitimize and kill.

 If one looks at the history of Muslim nations from the organized implementation of Islam through Sharia law states to the nations of today, this depiction of Muslim states being victims is false. They have victimized more than they have been victimized and they have victimized Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Bahaiis, Hindus, Christians, Zoroastrians, Siekhs, Druze, Kurds, Azidi, communists, trade unionists, gays, women, on and on.  Islam is not and has never been a peaceful religion in the manner in which  it has been practiced by states and imposed by war on others whether it be fellow Muslims or non Muslims.

Muslim countries not treated fairly? What country has been treated fairly on this planet and who decides that?

With due respect when referring to the history of Islam, there is very little peace. To pretend it was a peaceful society only to be victimized by the West into becoming bad is a crock of crap. Its the same false script that falsely  states Muslim extremists, Muslim terrorists are only violent because the West victimized them. Oh bull sheeyat. Muslims have been and continue to be their own worst enemy clinging to a non flexible approach to their ideology and condemnation of progressive Islamic movements trying to teach and guide them to move past fundamentalist rigid  thought processes to critical analysis and free thought.

My concern is for progressive Muslims and all kinds of Muslims  and non Muslims  being victimized by Islamic extremists. My concern is that states in Niger, Chad, Malawi, Sudan, or in pockets of Nigeria, or in Bahrain, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, are corrupted and violent-blaming the West for Muslim uprisings in China and Russia is nonsensical. Suggesting Boca Ratan are reacting to Western unfairness in Nigeria is crap. When the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt tried to wipe out Coptic Christians, when Sudan does the same through its Muslim Brotherhood to its Christians, when Assad engages in what he does, when Erdogan of Turkey openly calls for war against Kurds and encourages their genocide and denies the Armenian genocide, that's not because the West was unfair.

The Arab league nations that chose to ally with the Nazis, then Soviets and try wipe out Jews for having a tiny country were not victims-in fact they victimized Palestinians and turned Palestinians into pawns for their failed victimization of Jews in Israel.

the 900,000 Jews expelled from the Arab world, the hundreds of thousands of Jews persecuted in Arab countries along with Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, Christians, were not  victimized because of the West victimizing Muslim nations.

My comments are directed at Muslim governments and extremist Muslim terrorists and theologians, not ALL Muslims. I have been careful to state the Muslim governments I criticize hate everyone especially fellow Muslims in their own nations.

 

It's nice that you differentiate between Muslims and their governments. It would be nice if you differentiated between individual governments, instead of lumping all Muslim governments/regimes into one pile. 

Generally, theocracies are not a good form of government, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or other. Putting the beliefs of one set of people over everyone else, is not fair to anyone of other faiths. Granted, Muslim theocracies seem the most punitive to infidels, but the Christians have been pretty brutal too. 

In terms of fairness, I'm referring to a few specific things. 

1) The overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran. 
2) Seizing Arab land and turning it into Israel, and the additional land parcels Israel has taken since. 
3) The ongoing treatment of Palestine, mainly in terms of trade restrictions.
4) The "theft" of Arab oil, by the UK and US.  
5) The support of tyrannical regimes (Saudi Arabia) by the West, to suppress their own people. 

I'm not going to turn this into an Israel debate, but my point is that even though some Muslim nations have been treated unfairly at times, it does not justify the disproportionate planned violence that is perpetrated by extremist Muslims. 

Edited by Jariax
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1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Your right to free speech does not include a right to ignorance and then a claim that you, sitting in that world of ignorance, have a right to express your free speech, without being called on your dismal knowledge about this specific topic.

Free speech comes with responsibilities, first and foremost, bring yourself up to speed on the topic you wish to opine upon.

 

What absolute bollocks.  Another of the "freedom of speech, as long as it's my speech" types.

Edited by bcsapper
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7 minutes ago, hot enough said:

You are only upset because it captured you so brilliantly, bcsapper, illustrated in your rambling fleeing escape from your 911 ignorance.

Like I said, bollocks.

Edit>  But funny.  I'll give you that.

Edited by bcsapper
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42 minutes ago, hot enough said:

I can't imagine why you consider intellectual cowardliness and ignorance to be things good within the confines of free speech. 

I don't consider them relevant at all.

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58 minutes ago, hot enough said:

 

You support a speak your mind even when it's filled with ignorance and you think that cheap shot hit and runs is the embodiment of free speech. That makes a total mockery of free speech. 

Like I said, it's irrelevant to me.  Doesn't sound like an embodiment.

 

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9 hours ago, Bubble Burst said:

I have not expressed any view about who is to blame about that. I don't really care.

AFAIC that makes you worse than the terrorists.  It's the very same attitude our side went into this conflict with. 

Quote

All I care is that I want to be able to exercise my right of speech about criticizing an ideology and minimizing the risk of being randomly attacked.

I care about the harms way your disregard puts my family and could care less if you're attacked.  Better you than me. 

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6 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

Well, I doubt if a shovel would even register on your senses.

In any case...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_modernity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY-V-Bl7GU8

Lol.

Your link just states the western ideas they've actually adopted and how it's benefited them.

Thank you  for proving yourself wrong.

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18 hours ago, Jariax said:

It's nice that you differentiate between Muslims and their governments. It would be nice if you differentiated between individual governments, instead of lumping all Muslim governments/regimes into one pile.

In terms of fairness, I'm referring to a few specific things. 

1) The overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran. 
2) Seizing Arab land and turning it into Israel, and the additional land parcels Israel has taken since. 
3) The ongoing treatment of Palestine, mainly in terms of trade restrictions.
4) The "theft" of Arab oil, by the UK and US.  
5) The support of tyrannical regimes (Saudi Arabia) by the West, to suppress their own people. 

I'm not going to turn this into an Israel debate, but my point is that even though some Muslim nations have been treated unfairly at times, it does not justify the disproportionate planned violence that is perpetrated by extremist Muslims. 

First of all thanks for the respectful reply. Secondly and I mean this with no malice, provide me the name of a Muslim regime that you would refer to as being democratic, without corruption, internal strife/civil war and is well managed. I do mean that without malice. I can't find any. My point being with due respect Sharia law which is not distinct from the state apperati does not promote stability and democracy although fair is fair, if you think there is a government I overlooked please let me know and no I should not blame Muslims for having Muslim states anymore than people should condemn Jews for having a Jewish state or England being an Anglican state, or India being a Hindu state or Thailand or the conquered Tibet being Bhuddist ones, etc.

Next in regards to 1; if a government elected democratically becomes undemocratic, it doesn't mean that government is beyond reproach-Hitler was democratically elected. All dictators claim to be democratically elected. That strange fat boy in Pyong Pen, North Korea will tell you he was democratically elected. With due respect I am not saying the Shah of Iran was democratic no, but please don't tell me Iran runs legitimate elections and is democratic although I do not doubt its supporters feel it is.

In regards to 2, clearly I disagree with your use of the term "seizing Arab land".  Jews of Palestine were and are as Arab as any Muslim or Christian from those lands. Those Muslims who came to Palestine because of British immigration policy that flooded Palestine with Muslims to prevent a Jewish state contrary to their mandate under the League of Nations were just as much foreigners to Palestine as any Jew from the Middle East or Europe or anywhere else who came to Palestine. The concepts that Arabs "owned" the land is not legally or historically accurate. I would say to you-you are right there is no point going off on a tangent about Israel its not helpful but I do agree in a comprehensive peace deal its not realistic Israel would keep West Bank lands other than safe borders.

In regards to 3, you would have to clarify. I am aware the Palestinian Authority's BDS movement trying to boycott anything Israeli but I am not aware of any boycotts of Palestinian goods by anyone. If you are referring to security screening of goods going into Gaza yes its there and it is designed to prevent bringing in weapons, and it delays goods coming in but if goods are going in.

In regards to 4, I note you did not put Canada, Japan, Russia, China, France, and all the other nations getting oil from the Middle East. Why? Next while no doubt the oil network does exploit oil, come on OPEC is padding the pockets of corrupt Arab politicians and monarchs and blaming oil companies for that is inaccurate. Yes they do shady crap you bet and yes they prop corrupt governments with oil indirecly through governments, but that is hardly a  British-American phenomena although yes I concede the historic rule in Iran and Iraq by the British and other monarchies of the Arab world was always about oil. 

In fairness to the US it has been a strong ally of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait true, but how is that different than China in Sudan,. Mozambique, Angola, Iran and Iraq. China takes most of Iran's oil and 90% of Iraq's and Iraq's remanining 10% goes to Russia.

In regards to 5, many CIA puppets have been propped in the Middle East, i.e., Nasser, Ghaddafi, Hussein, not to mention Papa and Jr. Assad were Western props. Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, on and on I got you. However let's not select out the puppets put in by Nazi Germany, the Soviets, the current Russians and China and blame it entirely on such nations.

What I argue is some of the corruption and manipulation was or is from the West but not all of it.

I get your points, up to a point. Where the line ends between bad Western influences and internal Muslim societies failing I do not have a clear answer for. Ia m just saying its both.

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

provide me the name of a Muslim regime that you would refer to as being democratic, without corruption, internal strife/civil war and is well managed.

Provide me with the name of one that isn't on current outs with the USA that hasn't been established or protected or financed by the US government. 

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1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Provide me with the name of one that isn't on current outs with the USA that hasn't been established or protected or financed by the US government. 

The above fractured syntax is incoherent,  irrational and an illustration of extreme simplism.

You engage  in a  clumsy disjointed attempt to state that whether a Muslim country is assisted by or conflicted with the US its shortcomings are all caused by the US.

Your comment is moronic. The US did not draft the Koran nor did it implement Sharia law in Muslim nations nor did it even exist for the vast majority of the time Muslim countries have existed and been at war internally or externally.

In your world everything can be blamed on the US government.

It also necessarily means since you are in conflict with the US government, your behaviour is solely the result of the US and not your own free will.

Might I suggest your issues might be caused by  a congenital conditions and not by the US government.

 
 
 
 

 

 

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On 10/20/2017 at 7:47 PM, Jariax said:

Aside from Islamaphobia, the other reason some want to ban burkas and face coverings, is that they feel these adult women are being forced to by their husbands and/or brainwashed. 

We can't let the government determine who is and isn't brainwashed. They might one day claim that everyone religious is brainwashed, or vegans are brainwashed etc. And adults should be able to make their own decisions. 

If we want to make some compromises to protect women, maybe something like:

1) Children under 18 are forbidden from wearing the burka. (Even then, I would be uncomfortable with the government telling people how to raise their children, and deciding which religious beliefs should be respected. Remember when San Francisco wanted to ban male circumcision?)

2) Ensure that all women, get to spend some time apart from their husband in a safe-environment where women who speak their language can offer them support, and an escape if needed. All persons in Canada should have an option, and I believe there are new Canadians enter Canada in fear of their spouses. 

Aw, the joys of being a multicultural country. You get to sit in the front row seat and get to watch all the foolishness that goes on as a result of the people being forced to have to accept every language, culture, religion, tradition and ways of doing things from all over the world into that country. But there is still the fools who want more of it, not less. They refuse to believe that there can be any problems created from it when you keep trying to add more to the already overflowing multicultural country's pot. Some people's kids. :rolleyes:

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22 hours ago, Jariax said:

It's nice that you differentiate between Muslims and their governments. It would be nice if you differentiated between individual governments, instead of lumping all Muslim governments/regimes into one pile. 

Generally, theocracies are not a good form of government, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or other. Putting the beliefs of one set of people over everyone else, is not fair to anyone of other faiths. Granted, Muslim theocracies seem the most punitive to infidels, but the Christians have been pretty brutal too. 

In terms of fairness, I'm referring to a few specific things. 

1) The overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran. 
2) Seizing Arab land and turning it into Israel, and the additional land parcels Israel has taken since. 
3) The ongoing treatment of Palestine, mainly in terms of trade restrictions.
4) The "theft" of Arab oil, by the UK and US.  
5) The support of tyrannical regimes (Saudi Arabia) by the West, to suppress their own people. 

I'm not going to turn this into an Israel debate, but my point is that even though some Muslim nations have been treated unfairly at times, it does not justify the disproportionate planned violence that is perpetrated by extremist Muslims. 

Palestine is a joke and there was never a mention of it in 48. And look at jordan flag if you want to know where this so called palestine should be. And maybe the muslims never should have taken part in the final solution. And if Israel never was formed, that land would still be in the middle ages. And please enlighten us on stealing the oil. Look at the boycott of Israeli products, that there will throw a lot of palatines out of work. Real smart. And I would like to see that queer group or whatever they call themselves go and have a parade in those countries they support over Israel.

Edited by PIK
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