eyeball Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Iran has the death penalty for gay people, and Iran isn't Wahhabi or Salafi. They're Shia. Go do some reading about the status of women under Iran's Islamic-based laws. Egypt is Sunni, but it's full of barbaric attitudes regarding women too. The whole region has similar problems. You can't just blame it on ISIS or Wahhabis. -k The whole world had similar problems not that long ago. There were clearly places in ME region that were starting to follow the same path towards modernity that others around the world were on. Behind a few in some cases and ahead of a some in many and only a handful of decades behind the most advanced in a few. This entirely natural development was pretty much set back on it's ass by Cold War tensions and Big Oil lucre and in too many cases interfered with to a degree that the damage throughout entire regions is now akin to that which can result when someone's development is screwed up by the severest sexual abuse. Why can't you cut them a little slack for crying out loud? Edited November 25, 2015 by eyeball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Overall, completely ignoring the issue of terrorism, I just don't see that more Muslims would be a good thing for the country. Usually it's the opposite. More Muslims usually means more problems. We've seen this in many European countries. Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside? -k As Hudson Jones has already pointed out, this statement is rascist. Yes, Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas. But people are people. We choose (to some extent) what we believe and beliefs change over time. Especially as those beliefs are challenged in a free society with Twitter, Facebook, and other media exposing all kinds of different (and often better) ideas. You should be against the ideas rather than the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 You should be against the ideas rather than the people. I think one should be against the people with the ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 .... This entirely natural development was pretty much set back on it's ass by Cold War tensions and Big Oil lucre and in too many cases interfered with to a degree that the damage throughout entire regions is now akin to that which can result when someone's development is screwed up by the severest sexual abuse. So were many other parts of the world (Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, Central America, Southeast Asia, etc.)....that dog don't hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think one should be against the people with the ideas. To the extent that we can specifically determine the individuals with the bad ideas who are going to do the bad things then fine. Even some of the Westboro Baptist members have changed their tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) To the extent that we can specifically determine the individuals with the bad ideas who are going to do the bad things then fine. Even some of the Westboro Baptist members have changed their tune. Absolutely. Wouldn't want to call out anyone who didn't agree with the bad ideas. I think that's a point that escapes some on here. And elswhere, I guess. Edit> And by that I don't mean you, specifically. Edited November 25, 2015 by bcsapper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 It was a bottom-of-the-barrel accusation from a bottom-of-the-barrel member. And from here on I'm going to not bother responding to dog-crap like that. Speaking of bottom of the barrel - Listen to what this person said: I guess I'm Islamophobic. Overall, completely ignoring the issue of terrorism, I just don't see that more Muslims would be a good thing for the country. Usually it's the opposite. More Muslims usually means more problems. We've seen this in many European countries. Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 The whole world had similar problems not that long ago. There were clearly places in ME region that were starting to follow the same path towards modernity that others around the world were on. Behind a few in some cases and ahead of a some in many and only a handful of decades behind the most advanced in a few. This entirely natural development was pretty much set back on it's ass by Cold War tensions and Big Oil lucre and in too many cases interfered with to a degree that the damage throughout entire regions is now akin to that which can result when someone's development is screwed up by the severest sexual abuse. Why can't you cut them a little slack for crying out loud? You are asking for "slack" for the putting ppl to death for being gay. How about saying it's wrong? You know, doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Dialamah it takes a good person to apologize on the forum. Good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Jacee and Eye need to hear this from me because as much as I debate them both there are certain things I need to support them on. Sometimes its not made clear enough in debate. People, innocent people fleeing from terrorism of any kind, surely we have time to reach out and help them. If we don't we abandon all the values this country stands for. My concern is with improper screening, improper logistics to support refugees once they are her, not refugees. My concern is with terrorists or extremists coming in under the guise of being victims and actually coming here to spy on and keep tabs on Syriansf or Assad or ISIL, etc. I make no apology in saying Ismaili and Amidyah Muslims are the model for Muslims best suited for Canada. Why because their values embrace peace, respect, hard work. To me Islam is not the issue, its how you apply it. You bet I have bias and it is against extremist fundamentalism and terrorism . If conversation turns to stereotyping all Muslims as bad people, then I have to stand with you 2 and I will but I do not think and call me naïve, I do not think the Canadians you think hate Muslims necessarily hate Muslims-I think its Muslim extremism they can't stand. You have the absolute right to call me a bigot if you think I am writing off all Muslims as terrorists. Nuff said. I see tired people coming and I am not interested in beating up on them and hating them. Their children will be welcome in my home. Edited November 25, 2015 by Rue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkling Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 I love those areas of our cities, the colours and spicey smells, markets and shops. What difference rape and terrorism when there are bright colours and spicy smells for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notca Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Jacee and Eye need to hear this from me because as much as I debate them both there are certain things I need to support them on because deep inside they know I debate them because of a battle over how to be idealistic not being idealistic. You are both totally right to say we should not stereotype all Muslims as terrorists. For God's sake my disgust with the Liberal's is the crass way they exploited the Syrian refugee issue, not the Syrian people. Sometimes its not made clear enough in debate. People, innocent people fleeing from terrorism of any kind, surely we have time to reach out and help them. If we don't we abandon all the values this country stands for. My concern is with improper screening, improper logistics to support refugees once they are her, not refugees. My concern is with terrorists or extremists coming in under the guise of being victims and actually coming here to spy on and keep tabs on Syriansf or Assad or ISIL, etc. This issue is for me is bloody close. My mother was a refugee. All my grandparents were. For me to sheeyit on refugees for being refugees is not a choice. Push come to shove I will and have helped. However I will continue to challenge Muslim extremism as hateful and incompatible with Canadian values. I make no apology in saying Ismaili and Amidyah Muslims are the model for Muslims best suited for Canada. Why because their values embrace peace, respect, hard work. To me Islam is not the issue, its how you apply it. You bet I have bias and it is against all extremist religions. If conversation turns to stereotyping all Muslims as bad people, then I have to stand with you 2 and I will but I do not think and call me naïve, I do not think the Canadians you think hate Muslims necessarily the Muslims-I think its Muslim extremism they can't stand and they are not doing a good job explaining that because I know I haven't. You have the absolute right to call me a bigot if you think I am writing off all Muslims as terrorists. I don't think and call me naïve any of us are.. I think some of us can not stand extremists of any kind. Nuff said. I see tired people coming and I am not interested in beating up on them and hating them. Their children will be welcome in my home. I don't believe people are stereotyping Muslims, they are stereotyping their religion. And rightly so in my opinion. In order to assimilate into Western societies, Muslims will have to align their allegiance with the laws of their adopted countries. As it is, many of them put their allegiance to their religion first and that is not compatible with our Constitution. Western societies will not accept male dominance, forced marriage, marriages of old men to little girls, the intolerance of certain foods and alcohol, demands to change our laws to accommodate religious freedom. In those areas and other areas as well, Muslims will have to learn to compromise and adapt. There are ways that Muslims could show their willingness to adapt that they still reject. One glaring mistake they make, I believe, is their continuance of wearing head coverings It is widely known that it is not a religious requirement but a cultural preference. If the head coverings were discarded, they would not draw unnecessary attention to their 'difference'. Their boldness in defence is evident in the tv interviews where they appear in Muslim attire defending their right to wear it. Well of course they have that right, but all I am saying is, Is it wise? It is only prudent to avoid confrontation whenever possible and I believe this is one way that would go far in avoiding cultural clashes. Canadian would welcome any sign that there is acceptance of our own culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkling Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 You mean places like SE Michigan where Muslims and Jews come together for a day of charity every year on Dec 25? Dearborn must just be the biggest cesspool of radical intolerance and terrorist sympathies. Except it's not. Because Muslim folks who leave that bullshit behind them want to keep it there, not import it to their new homes. The other day in New York, a Jewish women committed suicide. She was in a dreadful marriage forced on her by her cult, a marriage to her first cousin. Her sister had previously committed suicide, also. The Hassidic did not leave their disgusting and misogynistic cultural beliefs behind when they came to America. They cling to it to his day. The idea that just because a religious person flies across the ocean they're going to abandon cultural beliefs which are taught them at birth and reinforced during every visit to temple or mosque is the kind of wishful thinking which discredits liberalism. I have encountered young Muslim men born in Canada whose beliefs about girls and women are no different than you would find in Egypt or Somalia or Afghanistan. The larger the community, the more reinforcement they receive. That they have a different language, different race, different religion and different beliefs helps them maintain their separateness and values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 And is that fear of hateful attitudes based in ignorance or based in knowledge? There is plenty of knowledge of the hateful attitudes of the people in the middle east and much of the Muslim world, especially as relates to women and gays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Cite please. Muslim rape gangs in the UK http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5386/british-girls-raped-oxford Muslim rape gangs in Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes Pakistani child rape gangs in the UK http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/250972/one-million-child-victims-muslim-rape-gangs-uk-arnold-ahlert Muslim rape gangs in Sweden http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape Muslim rape gangs in France http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/223741/muslim-gang-rapists-france-french-are-all-sons-daniel-greenfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Not every Canadian is reacting to the refugees with fear and hate: Yeah, lots of Canadians are morons. This is supposed to be a surprise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not an answer. Those are personal attacks that suggest you have no viable answer. . You launch personal attacks on people every day and you whine when they talk back to you? Who do you think you are anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 You smeared yourself when you wrote: So what IS the upside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 No information has been presented to support your very broad brush contention. Again, you've supplied no evidence to support that racist assumption. I am reminded of a column Barbara Kay wrote this morning on the strange inclusion of our new international trade minister on a recent Bill Maher show. The segment, whose subject matter included ISIL, refugees, national security and Islam, has gone viral. Freeland’s wince-making exchange with Maher is worth watching, because it succinctly demonstrates the cognitive dissonance multiculturalists are forced to adopt in defending policies that ignore values gaps between cultures. In brief, what one sees is Maher exercising his politically autonomous intelligence to state the obvious, and Freeland exercising her politically shackled intelligence to deny the obvious. And in particular. ...referencing the words of Asra Nomani, a moderate Muslim woman activist he champions, Maher wasn’t wrong when he reproved Freeland with “people like you are the problem, because they close off a debate that we need to have.” Just so. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-bill-maher-1-chrystia-freeland-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 Iran has the death penalty for gay people, and Iran isn't Wahhabi or Salafi. They're Shia. Go do some reading about the status of women under Iran's Islamic-based laws. Egypt is Sunni, but it's full of barbaric attitudes regarding women too. The whole region has similar problems. You can't just blame it on ISIS or Wahhabis. -k And let's not forget Pakistan, also not ISIS, also not Wahabi. Pakistan is one of Canada's major source countries for immigration. Try measuring the scale of excesses and crime against women in Pakistan, and you are sure to emerge more benumbed than bewildered. The statistics of a leading human rights organization show that, on average nine women are killed daily across the country in what are termed “honor crimes.” Pakistani imposes upon women a virtual textbook of morals. A woman is born to obey, not question. Her success lies in practicing an “exemplary life.” She is subservient to men, tradition, and honor. Women in Pakistan are encouraged to pursue domestic roles. Procreation and docility are the basic traits of any “good woman.” The family determines the course of her life, ultimately her destiny. Therefore matters of education, marriage and even reproductive rights are often determined on her part by those around her—parents, husband, etc. Those who object to these edicts are considered rebellious, unruly and often morally wrong. A streak of independence prompts chastisement and punishment from the family or system. This involves more often than not violence, ostracization and at times, murder. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jii/4750978.0010.103/--violence-against-women-the-high-price-of-womens-honor?rgn=main;view=fulltext Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 My answer is that nowhere in this thread have I talked about skin color. It was completely false and utterly baseless. If you disagree, search through the thread and prove otherwise. I challenge you. I dare you. I double dog dare you. It was a bottom-of-the-barrel accusation from a bottom-of-the-barrel member. And from here on I'm going to not bother responding to dog-crap like that. Well said. Unfortunately, such accusations are common here given the sympathies of the moderating team. And the thinking behind them, if one wishes to be charitable and use that verb, is that most Muslims are non-White. Therefore, if you have some sort of problem with Muslims, then you have a problem with non-Whites, which makes you a racist! This applies, bizarrely, even if you suggest that, in the case of refugees from that mess in the ME, we prioritize Christians. Given the Christians there are the same racial/ethnic makeup as the Muslims that ought to give a thinking person pause, but knee jerk reactionary progressives don't often stop to think when they can instead condemn thoughts which are uncomfortable to them. I have yet to see any rational justification as to why calling people bigots and racists is acceptable but calling them morons is not. They are all largely subjective pejorative terms flung out to insult people, largely by those incapable of intelligent discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) As Hudson Jones has already pointed out, this statement is rascist. The following quote is yours from another topic. The fact that ISIS doesn't want refugees going to the west and having those people realize that Islam, like so many other religions, is garbage and so they become secularized and normal human beings again? How is your statement any less 'racist' than hers? You said Islam is garbage, and the people who believe in it are not normal human beings. To most, that would seem worse than what Kimmy said. Why would you want to bring those who are not 'normal human beings' to Canada in the first place? Edited November 25, 2015 by Argus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) The following quote is yours from another topic. How is your statement any less 'racist' than hers? You said Islam is garbage, and the people who believe in it are not normal human beings. To most, that would seem worse than what Kimmy said. Why would you want to bring those who are not 'normal human beings' to Canada in the first place? You're right - my language was sloppy. By context it was intended to be "Islamists" rather than the implied "all Muslims." Edit: I take this back a little bit. The danger of bringing in partial quotes from other threads is that the context is lost. So it is not entirely clear just how sloppy my language is although I agree it should have been tightened up. For example, my bias is to consider that all religious people are not "normal" since I do not consider it sane to believe in an imaginary being such as Yahew, God, or Allah. Of course, most people think that religious people are "normal" since so many people believe in this insanity thereby normalizing it - so that is "normal" by a "many people believe this so it must be normal" criterion. Edited November 25, 2015 by msj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochy Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) ...referencing the words of Asra Nomani, a moderate Muslim woman activist he champions, Maher wasn’t wrong when he reproved Freeland with “people like you are the problem, because they close off a debate that we need to have.” Just so. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-bill-maher-1-chrystia-freeland-0 Which is what the same sort of thing people do here everyday, you don't agree with me? BIGOT! Are they unaware that they do this, or stupid enough to think that better people than them won't catch on? Edited November 25, 2015 by poochy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted November 25, 2015 Report Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I am reminded of a column Barbara Kay wrote this morning on the strange inclusion of our new international trade minister on a recent Bill Maher show. ] She's been a frequent guest for years.... Edited November 25, 2015 by Smallc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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