Islamophobia in Canada

[Guest]

They are not religious. What they are promoting is not religion, it is tyranny and extremism. It does matter what we think. Because if we think they are Islam, then we start to think ALL of them are like this. Ditch the generalizations and we can star to have a real conversation about all of this.

Don't forget, what we see today is a result of western intervention some years ago... let me recap for you... take it from these people ...

I was just reading an article on Spiked that speaks to this. A quote from it below:

The ultimate defence among those who seek to rationalise Islamism is that it’s ‘perverted’ or ‘twisted’: it’s not ‘true Islam’. One can forgive this argument from Muslims, most of whom are appalled by these gun-toting jihadists who murder in the name of their faith. But it’s not excusable from secular folk who know better. It is another form of evasive servility.

There’s no such thing as ‘twisted Islam’, because there’s no ‘true Islam’ either. Faiths, which have no external referent, are merely what their believers believe them to be. Those kindly, aged Methodists down the road from you are just as Christian as the Crusaders who butchered their way through the Holy Land in the Middle Ages. They just live in a different time and space.

They are promoting religion. Their religion. It's different from yours, it's different from that of other Muslims, but it is religion, nonetheless. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't exist.

[-1=e^ipi]

Once they engage in terrorism, they are no longer engaging in spirituality or religion.

Why? Because you say so?

They are absolutely religious. If you believe in a magical afterlife, then killing yourself isn't such a bad prospect.

[Big Guy]

The authoritative source is the new testament. Jesus came to fulfil the law.

I would not consider myself an expert, but I have read it cover to cover many times.

..

I would suggest that someone who has read the bible "cover to cover many times" might be not be considered a moderate Christian but an "extremist" Christian. I now have a better understanding of your views.

[Scotty]

I would suggest that someone who has read the bible "cover to cover many times" might be not be considered a moderate Christian but an "extremist" Christian. I now have a better understanding of your views.

I wonder how many times your average minister or priest has read the bible. I guess they're all 'extremists' in the eyes of some, ironically, in the eyes of those who keep making excuses for extremist Islam.

[Big Guy]

I wonder how many times your average minister or priest has read the bible. I guess they're all 'extremists' in the eyes of some, ironically, in the eyes of those who keep making excuses for extremist Islam.

I make no excuses for Islam. I make no excuses for Christianity. Extremism in any religion is not healthy.

There used to be another avatar here (who appears to be taking a break or is barred) who had views identical to yours and almost identical use of the English language. - Glad to see you filling in.

I would seldom respond to him/her and will show you the same courtesy.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Big Guy

[ReeferMadness]

The authoritative source is the new testament. Jesus came to fulfil the law. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. The Pope is not an authority on anything. Catholics do whatever they do, they do not speak for Christianity as a whole. A LOT of their teachings are extra-biblical.

Wow. The pope is not an authority on anything. The Catholics are only the largest denomination and the founding denomination of all Christianity - but they have no authority. OK, then.

So, who is the authority that says the OT doesn't count anymore - you? Do you have your own church now? The Church of Bryan? Maybe they could make a movie after you and call it The Life of Bryan. Oh, wait, someone did.

I would not consider myself an expert, but I have read it cover to cover many times. Unlike you, I actually do know what's in it, and more importantly, I understand the context under which each book was written.

So, I'm still waiting for the biblical passage where Jesus condemns homosexuality. Take your time.

Separation of Church and State is definitely a Christian principle. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.

A Christian principle? Astounding claim. I don't suppose you have an authoritative reference for that? And all those middle age European governments where the church held an enormous amount of power? You're not familiar with the crusades or the Inquisitions? You keep avoiding the question.

[notca]

They are both.

Some Muslims will also tell me that Mohamed ascended to heaven on a flying horse. That doesn't make it true.

Also, some non-extremist muslims think that ISIS are muslim, such as Tarek Fatah.

ISIS are muslim. They believe in the shahada. It's that simple. Yet religious apologists like you keep trying to label all these extremists as non-religious, which puts blame on non-religious people and doesn't help deal with the issue of the creation of religious extremists.

We have so-called 'moderate Muslims' telling us that the extremists are not Muslims, that is not Islam.

We have extremist Muslims telling us that moderate Muslims are not Muslims, that is not Islam.

Who is a non-Muslim to believe?

The both follow the Qu'ran. So I began reading the Qu'ran for myself years ago when all this terrorist BS first began. I have read enough of it to see that Mohammed must have been schizophrenic. He says one thing and then contradicts what he has said in another place.

I came to believe that this Mohammed guy who was dictating the Qu'ran to scribes (because he couldn't write himself) was making it up as he went along. When he was in a mellow mood (not very often!) he was kind of tolerant. When he was in a mean mood he was violent.

I wouldn't believe a word he said. His pontifications are goofier than those of the OT.

Would any thinking person who claims to believe in an all powerful God believe that God cares how we dress, what we eat, that we must eat different foods off different dishes, who we associate with, how many times a day we pray, whether we shave off all of our hair or wear beards.

Why did God create pigs if they are so filthy and offensive?

Why did God create 'infidels'? Just so Muslims would have somebody to hate and kill?

Would a God condone raping little female children? Old men marrying females children?

Would God make women attractive and alluring only to order them to cover up their attractiveness?

Would God keep an inventory of virgins on hand to reward good Muslims who blow themselves up?

It all seemed to me like the ramblings of a madman!

So which sect of Muslims should we believe? Personally I would not believe any of them. I think they are all delusional.

[notca]

The OT of the Bible is just as violent and 'not God-like' as the Qu'ran but at least the prophets who wrote their brutal instructions were consistent.

Fortunately, Jesus Christ amended and revised those cruel admonitions and gave us a kinder gentler way of living and incite into the nature of a loving God the Father who understands our human frailties and forgives our sins.

The Qu'ran has no such revision. It remains a blueprint for mayhem and murder.

Edited November 23, 2015 by notca

[dialamah]

It all seemed to me like the ramblings of a madman!

So which sect of Muslims should we believe? Personally I would not believe any of them. I think they are all delusional.

I just cannot disagree with this, and think it applies just as much to the Christian holy book.

[kimmy]

Yes they are. They are just pretty dodgy Christians, is all.

Fred Phelps is Christian. He believes in God and the holy trinity.

And belief in the Shahada is the basis for being muslim. That's why ISIS and Saudi Arabia have it on their flags.

The WBC are Christians. Their beliefs are on solid scriptural ground. Their interpretation isn't a popular one, but it's not like there's a scripture referee that can come in and say who's right and who's wrong (or if there is, He is keeping quiet.) And ditto Islam. The versions the Taliban or the Saudis or ISIS follow might not be popular in the west, but what authority says which version is real Islam and which isn't? If there is such an authority, He isn't talking.

-k

Edited November 23, 2015 by kimmy

[kimmy]

A lot of the objection to what I have been saying has been accusations that I'm not appreciating that there are many different views in the Muslim community, or anecdotal examples of Muslims who are friendly and progressive. And that completely misses the point.

I realize that not all Muslims hold the same views. I realize that even in extremely regressive Muslim countries, there are people who disagree with the laws. I'm aware that there are lots of individuals who don't fit the stereotype.

But we're not talking about individual cases, we're talking about the aggregate effect of tens of thousands of individuals. And in Europe, where they're much further along the path of bringing in Muslims that we are, we've seen that the aggregate effect of immigration from Muslim countries has brought with it some negative effects.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in anti-Jewish incidents.

In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in sexual violence against women.

In Europe their experience has been that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants simply won't integrate with society. A lot of people feel that that integration has been a complete failure, and this "alienation" of these Muslims who can't or won't integrate is often blamed for Muslim "anger" in these countries.

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

[Big Guy]

I believe that Christian interpretations of the Koran are as accurate and impartial as Islamic interpretations of the Bible.

I give neither credence.

[-1=e^ipi]

but what authority says which version is real Islam and which isn't?

Mohamed the Prophet.

And actually the Caliph was supposed to be the authority after Mohamed.

There is some flexibility of interpretation in Islam and other religions, but there is not infinite flexibility of interpretation. If you don't believe in Allah and you don't believe that Mohamed is the last and final prophet of Allah then you are not muslim, period.

[eyeball]

So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

-k

1) The upside will be that more Muslims will come to appreciate that the real enemies in the west are not lefties but conservatives.

2) Start a public education program aimed at reducing the amount of conservatism in our society, especially of the hard-boiled variety.

Edited November 23, 2015 by eyeball

[-1=e^ipi]

what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives?

We obtain more diversity. And diversity is strength, didn't you know? It helps use feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada?

We have the advantage of sunny ways and Justin Trudeau's super awesome screening process.

[Guest]

We obtain more diversity. And diversity is strength, didn't you know? It helps use feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

We have the advantage of sunny ways and Justin Trudeau's super awesome screening process.

Regarding the latter, apparently only women, children and families will be accepted by Canada. No single men.

Edited November 23, 2015 by bcsapper

[poochy]

1) The upside will be that more Muslims will come to appreciate that the real enemies in the west are not lefties but conservatives.

2) Start a public education program aimed at reducing the amount of conservatism in our society, especially of the hard-boiled variety.

Maybe you can give the conservatives a special marking and the extreme muslims will only kill those people.

Maybe I should be allowed to tell you what I really think of you and a few of your cohorts, but honesty and intelligence is frowned upon. Which is of course why some of our lesser lights thrive while the rest of us despair for the future.

[ReeferMadness]

Why? Because you say so?

They are absolutely religious. If you believe in a magical afterlife, then killing yourself isn't such a bad prospect.

Thank you for your caricature view of the world.

[eyeball]

Maybe you can give the conservatives a special marking and the extreme muslims will only kill those people.

Maybe I should be allowed to tell you what I really think of you and a few of your cohorts,

Don't hesitate on my account.

but honesty and intelligence is frowned upon.

Honesty? Bwahahaha.

As for intelligence, what are you taking about?

[drummindiver]

Basically. The Old Testament is important history for Christians to learn, but for the most part it does not apply to them instructionally. Jesus came to fulfil the old law. He laid down his own life as the final sacrifice for humanity. All of his teaching strictly forbid enforcing the old laws on your own accord. Vengeance is the strict purview of God and God alone, humans are not to carry out ANY form of enforcement.

Let's not forget the Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. Kind of important to the Jewish contingent.

[drummindiver]

Yeah, funny how you took that 500,000,000 from a post I made in which I said "1 Billion Muslims, give or take". Nice to know you accept me as an 'expert' - albeit only when it suits you.

If that's not the case, then please - show some actual statistics, real numbers, etc., which prove 500,000,000 radical Muslims - radical meaning they'd remove hands for theft, kill non-believers, stone adulters and murder homosexuals, or who belief that a Caliphate has been already established in Syria.

Radical does not mean they believe that homosexuality is wrong, or that gay marriages should not be allowed; there are plenty of Christians who believe the same thing. Even child marriage is common enough among Christians to take it out of the 'radical Islam' definition.

So please - prove what you are saying.

So now you're mad if I agree with you.

Seriously, I don't even care. I just want our government to follow protocols that have been implemented years before for safety reasons. That's it. Follow historical refugee protocols.

[drummindiver]

1) The upside will be that more Muslims will come to appreciate that the real enemies in the west are not lefties but conservatives.

2) Start a public education program aimed at reducing the amount of conservatism in our society, especially of the hard-boiled variety.

So, you are advocating a culling of us conservatives how exactly?

[Big Guy]

Regarding the latter, apparently only women, children and families will be accepted by Canada. No single men.

Too bad. As for children, we have accepted a few who did good:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/battle-tested-canada-s-new-defence-minister-is-a-street-smart-combat-hardened-soldier-1.2667446

Looks like he may work out OK.

[Bryan]

Wow. The pope is not an authority on anything. The Catholics are only the largest denomination and the founding denomination of all Christianity - but they have no authority. OK, then.

The Christian church was around for hundreds of years before the Romans invented their own version of it to take advantage of people who couldnt read the bible to be able to know what was or was not in it.

So, who is the authority that says the OT doesn't count anymore - you?

Jesus is the only authority. Jesus coming to fulfil the law is a basic tenet of the religion. Literally no one with any knowledge of the bible would tell you that the ancient punishments were applicable anymore once Jesus came around. He paid the FINAL price by laying down his life. He ordered his followers not to kill anyone for any reason. Jesus did. Not me, not the Pope, not Billy Graham.

So, I'm still waiting for the biblical passage where Jesus condemns homosexuality. Take your time.

You asked me which Gospel says that its a sin. I gave you one, and I even prefaced what you'll find in it. Did you read it?

A Christian principle? Astounding claim. I don't suppose you have an authoritative reference for that?

I just gave it to you. You even quoted it, in Jesus own words

And all those middle age European governments where the church held an enormous amount of power? You're not familiar with the crusades or the Inquisitions? You keep avoiding the question.

I've answered that three times in this thread already.

You're just dragging this out further and further off topic. If you want to start a new thread, I suggest doing that.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Bryan

[Bryan]

I would suggest that someone who has read the bible "cover to cover many times" might be not be considered a moderate Christian but an "extremist" Christian. I now have a better understanding of your views.

If that's what you got from what I posted, then you have literally no understanding.