The downfall of respected political discourse In Canada (and here)

[Michael Hardner]

Again - what changed ?

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe better if I ask - why did things change ?

[Moonlight Graham]

I don't think humans have changed all that much in the past 150 years.

I doubt we've changed much in the past 1,000 years.

In terms of genetics no, but socially and culturally we have evolved dramatically. Western society has gone from brutal absolute monarchy dictatorships to liberal democracies where everyone has equal legal rights and power is exchanged 100% peacefully after every election by the will of everyone and not just 1 powerful family who happen to use violence better than all others. That is civilization. We've ended slavery, women have the right to vote, homosexuals can love each other without fear of death/violence. So yes, humans have changed.

This civilized society we have built is under constant threat by those who wish to take us back in time, they'll do despicable things simply to secure their own power. Anyone, whether a politician or a MLW poster, who puts their own interests ie: their party/political goals ahead of what's best for their country and the health of its democracy is acting in a disgusting manner. It's really revolting to me to see so many posters on MLW defend the disgusting actions of some politicians/parties simply because they happen to support that party over others. It can be very tempting to do so, I think most everyone on MLW has been guilty of it at some point (myself included), but it's still disgusting. We need to remove ourselves completely from these partisan or ideological "teams" we support and together fight all corruption from all politicians/parties. We see with the sponsorship scandal and the Harper gov BS that corruption isn't a right or left-wing thing, and yet it's mind-blowing that people will still support these parties and stick their signs on their lawns. I see what seem like ordinarily good people on MLW try and defend very bad things done by politicians, and that makes me understand how politicians themselves who may begin with good intentions can be corrupted in the 1st place (ie: Harper).

But don't blame others for getting "drawn into it."

We all can make the choice and we should choose more wisely.

Agreed. But I also agree with much of what Scotty said too about the fall in respectful discourse in the country.

[Scotty]

This civilized society we have built is under constant threat by those who wish to take us back in time, they'll do despicable things simply to secure their own power

That attitude is kind of what I'm talking about. Do you seriously think politicians in Canada want to take us back to some kind of violent, pre civilization time?

It's really revolting to me to see so many posters on MLW defend the disgusting actions of some politicians/parties

Why? Isn't it possible that what you find 'disgusting' is simply a difference of opinions?

Name a disgusting action of a political party in this election - without advocating for or against in order to avoid thread drift. I do not wish to refight on this topic what is being fought over on others.

[msj]

In terms of genetics no, but socially and culturally we have evolved dramatically. Western society has gone from brutal absolute monarchy dictatorships to liberal democracies where everyone has equal legal rights and power is exchanged 100% peacefully after every election by the will of everyone and not just 1 powerful family who happen to use violence better than all others. That is civilization. We've ended slavery, women have the right to vote, homosexuals can love each other without fear of death/violence. So yes, humans have changed.

Our behaviour in the west has changed to a large extent but one only has to look at Muslim dominated societies to see that humans haven't changed one bit.

This civilized society we have built is under constant threat by those who wish to take us back in time, they'll do despicable things simply to secure their own power.

This is not new and is typical of humanity. No change here.

Agreed. But I also agree with much of what Scotty said too about the fall in respectful discourse in the country.

Twitter, FB, this forum have not been around very long.

It is just human nature in action. The nature is always there it is just more noticeable now that we have technology that allows anyone in the world to discuss anything they want in a public forum.

[msj]

Those are key points... the amount of catastrophizing being done, on all sides, is out of control.

-k

Then ignore it.

Or thoughtfully challenge it (which to your credit you do and have done).

But why have a thread that is essentially "people were so much better at Platonic dialogues in the past" when those of us who have been discussing politics for decades, and can actually read history, know it just isn't so?

The volume has gone up due to technology.

More of the "rabble" can be heard now thanks to technology.

I welcome this diversity even if it means I must learn to filter it to be meaningful to me and if I must learn to check any emotional baggage that leads to devolving and unacceptable discussions (or rely on Michael Hardner to moderate me).

[Moonlight Graham]

It is just human nature in action. The nature is always there it is just more noticeable now that we have technology that allows anyone in the world to discuss anything they want in a public forum.

I'm sorry but this is the dirtiest federal election in Canada I've seen in all my adult years. Not to say the others weren't dirty, but this is the worst. And not because it's more noticeable, it's because the tactics have changed, and the campaign money must be massive. Tell me with a straight face you've ever seen mudslinging TV or radio or print ads at the rate of this election in Canada.

Human nature arguments are BS. Killing people and raping people and molesting children is human nature too. But through reason we have calculated that it's is to the benefit of all if these activities were banned and protected against. It's called civilized society. But hey it's ok for rape to occur because "human nature" and facebook.

[Michael Hardner]

It's probably the dirtiest election in awhile - maybe because it's also the closest in awhile. But is it the dirtiest 'ever' ? Is this really a 'downfall' ?

I think some of the perceived degeneration is actually the ascendance of personal opinions being heard by many others, the ascendance of online discourse and so on.

There are other factors, such as the reduction in non-online social groups. What else ?

[Smallc]

I didn't find this election considerably dirty actually. I found it bland, despite its close race. I think that the tone was different from one party, and that actually lightened things. I think that's why the party is winning.

[WestCoastRunner]

It's not only the dirty campaigns, but also the warnings from Election Canada that have gone out to staffers to watch for dirty voter suppression. The same tactics that are used south of our border will inevitably find their way to Canada.

[Moonlight Graham]

That attitude is kind of what I'm talking about. Do you seriously think politicians in Canada want to take us back to some kind of violent, pre civilization time?

I do think some politicians wish to be able to seize and retain power using means of deception and corruption that haven't been legal for centuries, and some of them in this country will do just about anything save murder if they think they can get away with it. That's not democracy, nor civilization, it's all Machiavellian BS.

As we've seen over the last 10-15 years, politicians are clearly interested in taking away our rights/civil liberties to expand their own power over us. Their wolves, and we're sheep.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... The same tactics that are used south of our border will inevitably find their way to Canada.

Well, that didn't take very long...blame Canadian choices and actions on your favorite scapegoat...the Americans. For instance, televised debates came from the United States...oh the horror !

[Big Guy]

Five points:

1. Political dialogue has been down and dirty for as along as I can remember. When TV came along and political pudits began to analyze positions and facts then the major lies were exposed.

2. As for this site, people tend to treat politics as some kind of game or fight. You are either right or wrong. You are either with me or against me. I will protect my man at all costs. You insult my man then you insult me - so get ready for war.

3. Some nasty people just use politics as just another tool to go after their perceived enemy on the board.

4. Anonymity allows an angry individual to express themselves in a way they would never do in real life.

5. Some people actually believe that their posts will convince someone to vote for their candidate - I suggest that it works just the opposite with unpopular posters turning people away from the person they support.

[ReeferMadness]

Those are key points... the amount of catastrophizing being done, on all sides, is out of control.

When the Martin regime was in its final days and the Conservatives were on the rise, the Liberal and NDP supporters were predicting all manner of terrible things if Harper became Prime Minister. The reality is, 10 years later, none of the horrible things they predicted came to pass. Overall, Steven Harper didn't turn out to be such a bad guy after all.

And we see the same today. The shoe is now on the other foot, as Conservative supporters catastrophize on how Trudeau or Mulcair would destroy the country as we know it. You know what? The country is going to be fine, regardless who wins. It's not like we're choosing between Aragorn vs Sauron. We're choosing between slightly different roadmaps to get to a destination that's pretty similar.

-k

It's way too early to judge Harper's impact. He's cheated in the last 3 elections, introduced the permanent campaign, politicized non-partisan institutions and has brought intolerance into politics in a way it hasn't been in decades. If this becomes the new normal in Canadian politics, then he will have caused long term damage to the political landscape.

Look what's happening down south. History shows that sooner or later what goes on down there winds up in Canada.

[Moonlight Graham]

5. Some people actually believe that their posts will convince someone to vote for their candidate.

Yeah that's an odd behaviour I've seen this election on MLW. It's like posters are campaigning on here lol.

[Big Guy]

For those who are serious - I have always been interested in politics and my support has shifted all over the political field as I grew up, my circumstances differed and my experience in life increased. If you really want to expand your understanding of political positions then find yourself some people who you respect and whose views are different from yours.

Almost every Thursday, I join three others at different venues and discuss politics (municipal, provincial and federal). I am retired from a career in education, another is a retired Baptist minister, another is a retired officer in our Canadian military and another a retired very successful businessman who was once mayor of our municipality. There is no topic that cannot be discussed.

We have very, very different views of many issues but have one common trait - we each respect each other, accept the idea that each is an "expert" in his field and enjoy the sharing of points of view. Early on, there were times when a passionate discussion would approach an emotional parameter with a danger that something would be taken personally - but we learned early on that a "time out" would be called. After a while we realized that personalizing an argument was never intended and those moments have ended.

I have changed my mind on a number of issues once I had the opportunity to hear an argument from completely different angle. I would like to think that the others are better from my sharing of my views and experiences. I look forward to sitting down in one of those comfortable chairs: a cold beer, a Scotch and water, a white wine and rum (straight up) strategically placed at the appropriate places.

It is ironic that a few years ago, I befriended that retired Baptist minister and found out that we had met in London in the late 1960's. I was accompanying our University football team at an away game in London and he was leading an anti-Vietnam rally. I was one of the jocks throwing vegetables at the protestors and he got a tomato in the back of his head. (By the way - his group was right - we were wrong).

Discussing politics can be a learning experience or it can be a battle - it is up to you.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Big Guy

[cybercoma]

As I said I don't see a lot of real dialogue. Maybe it's as Kimmy describes it.

I feel that there must have been more forums for such discussion in the past.

Politics is very divisive. People in their day to day affairs do not generally want to create divisions in their workplaces or amongst their friends and family. There's also a culture which dictates that polite society doesn't discuss religion nor politics for that reason. I think this culture of not discussing those things has done more harm than good.

[cybercoma]

I didn't find this election considerably dirty actually.

Mulcair was certainly bland, but the dead cat that the Conservative threw on the table was one of the most despicable campaign strategies we've seen as long as I can remember. Though when I think about it, I guess it's a lot better than making fun of Chrétien's facial paralysis.

[ToadBrother]

Politics is very divisive. People in their day to day affairs do not generally want to create divisions in their workplaces or amongst their friends and family. There's also a culture which dictates that polite society doesn't discuss religion nor politics for that reason. I think this culture of not discussing those things has done more harm than good.

Politica, along with religion and your recent ingrown toenail surgery are things best left unmentioned in polite society. I have yet to be in an argument where either I or those I'm debating with have changed their minds, but I have seen such debates get cranky.

[Big Guy]

Politics is very divisive. People in their day to day affairs do not generally want to create divisions in their workplaces or amongst their friends and family. There's also a culture which dictates that polite society doesn't discuss religion nor politics for that reason. I think this culture of not discussing those things has done more harm than good.

For a number of years, the discussion of sex, religion and politics (especially politics) was not allowed in Canadian Legions - to a point that a person from one table might walk over to another table and remind the folks of the "rule" if they were stretching it..

[Army Guy]

For good reason , they are very hot topics and after a few to many beers could lead to civil discourse....or a punch in the month....those rules still exist in the military messes.....although unofficially....along with not bad mouthing the Queen.....

[Scotty]

I'm sorry but this is the dirtiest federal election in Canada I've seen in all my adult years.

What is your reasoning? I don't remember any big scary features of it. Trudeau was being depicted as not read. That's not exactly a big, dirty smear. His policies were often inaptly described, but that's a normal feature of elections on all sides. I haven't heard Mulcair being described in any particularly nasty way. The opposition have complained about Harper's controlling personality as PM, which is fair, rather than insulting or dirty. I haven't seen anything which compares to the ads for 'soldiers in our streets, with guns' or the ones which showed Chretien's disfigurement.

[Scotty]

I do think some politicians wish to be able to seize and retain power using means of deception and corruption that haven't been legal for centuries

There isn't any evidence to support that, other than taking a few instances of individuals getting overzealous, and then exagerating them and using them to tar entire parties.

I've asked for an example and you declined to provide one.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Scotty

[eyeball]

I think all that's happening is that the water-hole is getting smaller and the animals are getting meaner. It's not rocket science and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. We haven't seen anything yet.

Another 15 years or so from now, we'll likely be in a civil war, uncivil is more like it. I'm kinda itching for it to tell you truth.

[Scotty]

It's way too early to judge Harper's impact. He's cheated in the last 3 elections,

Evidence of Harper having cheated in the last three elections seems vanishingly rare. I think you are taking a couple of individual instances such as the guy who outstripped his spending limits, and the guy who did that robocall stuff and blaming that on Harper. This even though there is no evidence such things were done in an organized, across the country basis as if it were being directed from above, and no evidence it had any impact even on local elections, let alone the national one.