Argus Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 I posted an article several days back from Andrew Coyne who basically called Trudeau's economic plans nonsense, and pointed out most of the extra money he wants to borrow won't be for infrastructure anyway. Now Jeffrey Simpson has basically done the same thing, pointing out how costly the promises are vs the vague ideas of how it's to be paid for. Only 15% is for infrastructure, and as to how to pay for what will mostly be permanent new programs, well, they hope there will be a lot of economic growth, even though economists don't think there will, and they hope to find billions in 'government waste' that two careful reviews by the hard nosed conservatives haven't found. They also seem to hope they can get more money from people like me than is likely to be the case. I can tell you that if Trudeau wins my first call the next day will be to an accountant (I've been asking around). I will stop doing my own taxes and have the account find ways to lower my tax bill. Put another way, the pledge to run deficits to kick-start the economy through infrastructure, which is the way the party presents the plan, is misleading because so much more money is being allocated on a plethora of new and existing programs or tax cuts. Most of this spending – for health, job training, clean technology, arts and culture, aboriginal people, veterans, immigration – gets baked into base government appropriations. It’s not one- or two-time stimulus, but rather permanent additional spending to the government’s bottom line. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/liberals-platform-promises-much-but-how-much-can-they-deliver/article26690262/ Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Freddy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) No one is having kids, we will all be extinct by the time we have to pay it back. Who cares? Spend spend spend! Edited October 7, 2015 by Freddy Quote
waldo Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Most of this spending – for health, job training, clean technology, arts and culture, aboriginal people, veterans, immigration – gets baked into base government appropriations. It’s not one- or two-time stimulus, but rather permanent additional spending to the government’s bottom line. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/liberals-platform-promises-much-but-how-much-can-they-deliver/article26690262/ your link is to an 'Unlimited G&M' article... subscription required. Without regard to the veracity of the journalist's claims (whatever they are since those without a G&M subscription are in the dark), what's the definition of "permanent" implied deficit? Surely not HarperSixInARow, yes? . Quote
Keepitsimple Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Here's a link to the article that does not require a subscription: Put another way, the pledge to run deficits to kick-start the economy through infrastructure, which is the way the party presents the plan, is misleading because so much more money is being allocated on a plethora of new and existing programs or tax cuts. Most of this spending – for health, job training, clean technology, arts and culture, aboriginal people, veterans, immigration – gets baked into base government appropriations. It’s not one- or two-time stimulus, but rather permanent additional spending to the government’s bottom line. The Liberals therefore would be changing the structure of the budget – by not proceeding with income splitting (except for seniors) and not allowing contributions to tax-free savings accounts to increase, and a few other small revenue changes – while adding a larger sum in the baked-in spending. Link: http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx Quote Back to Basics
PIK Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 We will pay it. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
ToadBrother Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 We will pay it. As we will for all the platforms; one way or the other. Quote
scribblet Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Indeed we will, especially seniors who are now benefiting from the senior's income splitting which I understand Trudeau will remove although I haven't confirmed that. Add about another thousand in additional taxes such as carbon taxes and we are screwed. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
ToadBrother Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Indeed we will, especially seniors who are now benefiting from the senior's income splitting which I understand Trudeau will remove although I haven't confirmed that. Add about another thousand in additional taxes such as carbon taxes and we are screwed. Carbon taxes are coming no matter what. Quote
Argus Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Posted October 7, 2015 As we will for all the platforms; one way or the other. The Conservatives' have costed theirs out, and they haven't made any big new promises. The NDP are being vague about how they plan to pay for theirs, though my guess is this new 'carbon tax' will be a big one, designed to bring in a lot of money. Still, at least they've promised that every budget will be balanced. What have the Liberals promised other than to bring down their own self-imposed deficit in a few years? And it's all for what? The middle class is not exactly suffering. Several organizations have already shown that old canard to be nonsense. They're spraying money out left and right, not on infrastructure or economic incentives but to buy votes. And as Simpson points out, it's not like a one time promise to build a road. These promises will be embededed in existing programs and will permanently raise government spending. Yet they have no way of paying for it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Liberalhippy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 The taxation of Marijuana. The state of Washington has sold $250 million in marijuana in the past year — roughly $62 million of which constitute marijuana excise taxes. Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 The Conservatives' have costed theirs out, and they haven't made any big new promises. The NDP are being vague about how they plan to pay for theirs, though my guess is this new 'carbon tax' will be a big one, designed to bring in a lot of money. Still, at least they've promised that every budget will be balanced. What have the Liberals promised other than to bring down their own self-imposed deficit in a few years? The balanced budget promise isn't worth the paper it is written on, and there are costs associated even with cutting back government. And it's all for what? The middle class is not exactly suffering. Several organizations have already shown that old canard to be nonsense. They're spraying money out left and right, not on infrastructure or economic incentives but to buy votes. And as Simpson points out, it's not like a one time promise to build a road. These promises will be embededed in existing programs and will permanently raise government spending. Yet they have no way of paying for it. They're buying votes, just like the Tories are buying votes. It's just the Tories are smarter to more narrowly target their vote buying via a plethora of boutique tax credits. And frankly, considering we're heading for a hung parliament in all likelihood, you might as well take all three parties' platforms, crumple them up and throw them in the trash, because whatever ends up coming out of the next government is going to be a far cry from what anyone is promising now. Quote
Argus Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Posted October 7, 2015 The taxation of Marijuana. The state of Washington has sold $250 million in marijuana in the past year — roughly $62 million of which constitute marijuana excise taxes. We're talking about $10 billion deficits. The potheads aren't going to be able to cover much of that. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Posted October 7, 2015 The balanced budget promise isn't worth the paper it is written on, I disagree. I think they would balance the budget. They just aren't telling us about all the extra taxes it would do to do so. As I said, I expect they will make the carbon tax a big one. and there are costs associated even with cutting back government. Who has promised further cutting back the government? They're buying votes, just like the Tories are buying votes. It's just the Tories are smarter to more narrowly target their vote buying via a plethora of boutique tax credits. The Liberals have done the same, but the similarity ends with the fact their promises are over $10 billion per year higher than the Tory promises. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Liberalhippy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 We're talking about $10 billion deficits. The potheads aren't going to be able to cover much of that. You would be surprised. Quote
ToadBrother Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 I disagree. I think they would balance the budget. They just aren't telling us about all the extra taxes it would do to do so. As I said, I expect they will make the carbon tax a big one. My experience with balanced budget legislation in BC is that it is honored so long as the economy is doing well, but the moment things go south, the legislation is discarded. It's pointless populist pandering. No Parliament can bind a future Parliament. End of story. Who has promised further cutting back the government? Maintaining anything beyond marginal deficits is going to mean holding the line on government spending, which will mean reduction of services in the long run. The Liberals have done the same, but the similarity ends with the fact their promises are over $10 billion per year higher than the Tory promises. Yup, they have, and if that's what enough voters want, that's what they'll get. Quote
cybercoma Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 We're talking about $10 billion deficits. The potheads aren't going to be able to cover much of that. Did you account for the increase in Mountain Dew and Doritos sales? Quote "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." --Thomas Jefferson
waldo Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Here's a link to the article that does not require a subscription: Link: http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx no - linkee no pointee to article... and pressdisplay has been supplanted with pressreader by the by... can anyone point me to a fully costed breakout of the Harper Conservative 2015 election platform, inclusive of campaign promises... one that speaks to, as the OP says, "How is Harper Going to Pay for all His Promises?" The Conservatives' have costed theirs out . Quote
dialamah Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Indeed we will, especially seniors who are now benefiting from the senior's income splitting which I understand Trudeau will remove although I haven't confirmed that. Trudeau would remove family income splitting, not seniors.https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/retirement-security/?shownew=1 Quote
poochy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Yup, they have, and if that's what enough voters want, that's what they'll get. The country be damned. 10 years of whining about conservatives not spending enough, then too much, and now the liberals will spend even more, it says a lot about liberals, none of it good, power at literally any cost. Quote
Argus Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Posted October 7, 2015 My experience with balanced budget legislation in BC is that it is honored so long as the economy is doing well, but the moment things go south, the legislation is discarded. It's pointless populist pandering. No Parliament can bind a future Parliament. End of story. We're not talking about balanced budget legislation. We're talking about the NDP promise to balance the budget every year. Maintaining anything beyond marginal deficits is going to mean holding the line on government spending, which will mean reduction of services in the long run. That's not necessarily true depending on economic growth and how it affects revenues. Yup, they have, and if that's what enough voters want, that's what they'll get. Which goes back to my complaint about people who pay no taxes getting to vote in spendthrift politicians who promise more goodies they will never have to pay for. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ToadBrother Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Which goes back to my complaint about people who pay no taxes getting to vote in spendthrift politicians who promise more goodies they will never have to pay for. To which I retort that the governed, whoever they are, have a right to determine who governs them. Even if Trudeau's "infrastructure" plan comes to fruition, the deficits are not so high that they couldn't be dealt with. After all, the Tories dealt with the deficits they produced. Quote
waldo Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) The country be damned. 10 years of whining about conservatives not spending enough, then too much, and now the liberals will spend even more, it says a lot about liberals, none of it good, power at literally any cost. can you point me to a fully costed breakout of the Harper Conservative 2015 election platform, inclusive of campaign promises... one that speaks to, as the OP says, "How is Harper Going to Pay for all His Promises?" . Edited October 7, 2015 by waldo Quote
Liberalhippy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 can you point me to a fully costed breakout of the Harper Conservative 2015 election platform, inclusive of campaign promises... one that speaks to, as YOUR OP says, "How is Harper Going to Pay for all His Promises?" . It doesn't exist. Quote
scribblet Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 Trudeau would remove family income splitting, not seniors.https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/retirement-security/?shownew=1 Thanks, I wasn't sure about that. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
dialamah Posted October 7, 2015 Report Posted October 7, 2015 I believe Trudeau had initially planned for a balanced budget, but additional information had him change his plan. He just told us before the election, not after. I think all three parties will end up running deficits, regardless of what they promise or would prefer. Not because they're liars but because of the economic situation around the world. That Trudeau already has a plan in place for that is impressive, in my opinion. That Harper and Mulcair fail to look at the larger picture isn't. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2015/NEW040715A.htm http://www.cfr.org/economics/next-global-economy-look-ahead-2015/p35962 Quote
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