Migrants - What is their true value to Canada?

[Smallc]

What a disgusting comment!

We don't have enough work for citizens and residents. We don't need more workers at the moment.

[Machjo]

There is plenty of work in Canada. The problem is education. The unemployed don't have the skills to access the available jobs.

[WestCoastRunner]

We don't have enough work for citizens and residents. We don't need more workers at the moment.

You missed my point.

[Machjo]

If the problem is lack of education and you prevent educated foreigners from taking those jobs, the jobs themselves will just move to where the qualified workers are and potentially taking some unskilled jobs with them. How will that help unskilled workers?

[WestCoastRunner]

If the problem is lack of education and you prevent educated foreigners from taking those jobs, the jobs themselves will just move to where the qualified workers are and potentially taking some unskilled jobs with them. How will that help unskilled workers?

I work in a district of bc that has a hard time recruiting White IT workers so we have to hire workers with limited English speaking skills however they are very smart so we encourage them to upgrade both English and IT skills. White Canadians just don't want to relocate to this area.

[Go.Leafs]

Great reply. You are right. Value to Canadians is most important and I will think twice before I start a thread again. Thanks for the insight.

[dre]

We don't have enough work for citizens and residents. We don't need more workers at the moment.

Right but we have built an economy based on domestic consumption. If the result is a stagnant population, then less immigrants means less jobs for Canadians as well.

When the population is growing theres new demand for goods and services. The new residents need homes, they need new stores to shop in, they need new businesses to patronize. Thats why countries try to maintain a growth economy.

You can experience this on a smaller scale... Go to a town where the population is increasing. Theres constuction all over the place, new homes, new businesses, new infrastructure, etc. Now go and visit a town where the population is shrinking... pretty quiet. Businesses closing their doors, no new constuction, etc.

[Smallc]

Right but we have built an economy based on domestic consumption. If the result is a stagnant population, then less immigrants means less jobs for Canadians as well.

I'm talking about temporary foreign workers in particular, and not immigration largely. i'm in favour of a growing population and economic immigrants to permanently fill holes.

[Argus]

What a disgusting comment! Have you no sense of respect for other people that don't fit into 'argus mentality'?

I generally give the level of respect deserved. He's made post after post on the troubles of his girlfriend getting into Canada and working, and why he wants the rules changed so foreigners can just come over and work here whenever they want.

Who says we aren't letting foreigners work here?

The law. You can't work here if you don't live here, and you can't live here if you're a foreigner. Sorry if that's too complicated for you to grasp, but I don't know how to make it a lot simpler. Obviously there are a few programs you can apply to, but he's not talking about that.

[Argus]

Right but we have built an economy based on domestic consumption. If the result is a stagnant population, then less immigrants means less jobs for Canadians as well.

You fail to demonstrate how letting more immigrants in, which, granted, increases jobs, is a net benefit to Canadians after accounting for the fact the immigrants need jobs.

[Argus]

I work in a district of bc that has a hard time recruiting White IT workers so we have to hire workers with limited English speaking skills however they are very smart so we encourage them to upgrade both English and IT skills. White Canadians just don't want to relocate to this area.

Gee, I wonder why. Could it be they feel like foreigners there and don't want to be one of a tiny minority of White people in a sea of foreigners?

[On Guard for Thee]

I generally give the level of respect deserved. He's made post after post on the troubles of his girlfriend getting into Canada and working, and why he wants the rules changed so foreigners can just come over and work here whenever they want.

The law. You can't work here if you don't live here, and you can't live here if you're a foreigner. Sorry if that's too complicated for you to grasp, but I don't know how to make it a lot simpler. Obviously there are a few programs you can apply to, but he's not talking about that.

Apparently law is not your forte. I'd start with a primer on the TFW program.

[Argus]

Apparently law is not your forte. I'd start with a primer on the TFW program.

Apparently reading comprehension is not yours. I said that there were a few programs which could be applied for, that being one of them, but that was not what he was talking about. He was talking about allowing any foreigner who wanted to, to come here and work.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Argus

[ToadBrother]

Right but we have built an economy based on domestic consumption. If the result is a stagnant population, then less immigrants means less jobs for Canadians as well.

When the population is growing theres new demand for goods and services. The new residents need homes, they need new stores to shop in, they need new businesses to patronize. Thats why countries try to maintain a growth economy.

You can experience this on a smaller scale... Go to a town where the population is increasing. Theres constuction all over the place, new homes, new businesses, new infrastructure, etc. Now go and visit a town where the population is shrinking... pretty quiet. Businesses closing their doors, no new constuction, etc.

Exactly. Look at what is happening in Japan. Whole towns are becoming ghost towns as the country is further gripped by negative population growth. The Japanese have always been a fairly insular people who have long rejected immigration, but they simply cannot sustain their economy in the long run, and even in the medium term it doesn't look good. And Japan is one of the largest industrial nations in the world.

Most industrialized countries have serious problems, and even if tomorrow successful birth rate policies were initiated, immigrants would still be needed for the next couple of decades.

[dre]

You fail to demonstrate how letting more immigrants in, which, granted, increases jobs, is a net benefit to Canadians after accounting for the fact the immigrants need jobs.

No I didnt. I explained why a growing population fosters economic growth, and all Canadians are participants in that economy. I own a constuction services company, and most of my revenue comes from new constuction. If the population in my town was not growing there would be very little new construction at all. That means that I would be able to afford less consumption, which would hurt every other business I deal with and all those Canadian workers, and all that means shrinking revenues as well.

The reality is the government WILL do what is required to keep population growth around 2% per year. If theres a baby boom here at home then they will start letting in less immigrants but unless that happens no government will do anything different.

[Argus]

No I didnt. I explained why a growing population fosters economic growth, and all Canadians are participants in that economy.

Yeah, including the new ones. Larger economy, but more people needing jobs. Our country is way bigger than it was when I was young. How is it better? How are we richer?

Economic growth can be be achieved through higher productivity, too, which, btw, Canada sucks at.

I own a constuction services company, and most of my revenue comes from new constuction.

Good for you. Obviously the more people coming to Canada, the more business there is for new home construction. I can see why you'd want as much immigration as possible.

Now tell me how this is good for me? Because you're employing more people? But there are more people to employ now. Because you're paying more taxes? But there are more people in need of services now. So how do we know I'm any better off? How do we know the country is any better off?

I go back to the article on Mulroney tripling immigration. To try and convince cabinet this was a good thing Barbara MacDougal consulted the Economic Council of Canada. Their response was that if she wanted to justify tripling immigration she'd need to find some reason other than economics, because economics didn't justify it. So what did she find? Well, if the PCs let in lots more immigrants they'll be grateful and vote for THEM.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Argus

[ToadBrother]

Yeah, including the new ones. Larger economy, but more people needing jobs. Our country is way bigger than it was when I was young. How is it better? How are we richer?

Economic growth can be be achieved through higher productivity, too, which, btw, Canada sucks at.

The 2% growth number isn't pulled out of the air, and generally applies to all industrial economies. Increased productivity might help a bit, although even Japan and Germany, which tend to excel at productivity, are still at serious risk because of low population growth; the difference between the two is that the Germans are basically hoovering up every migrant they can find, while Japan remains somewhat in a state of denial even as it is forced to allow in more foreign workers and is watching whole towns being depopulated.

[dialamah]

Like most industrialized nations, we have birth rates too low to sustain productivity and economic growth. I was at a symposium last year on BC's demographic issues last year that made it clear my province alone is going to need to import hundreds of thousands of workers over the next two decades.

Unless governments do a lot more to encourage birth rates (you know, massive investment in day care, baby bonuses of a significant amount, that sort of thing) we're going to end up like Germany, having to suck in every kind of immigrant from the lowest skilled upward.

And it's happening already. Whenever I stay in Vancouver most of the cleaners are Latino and Filipino.

Half the staff in my workplace are immigrants, because Canada cannot supply the educated, skilled personnel we need. These people make better than middle-class wages. The company spends money to both support young people coming up who could work in this field, as well as spend money to bring in the needed skillset from other countries.

[Argus]

Half the staff in my workplace are immigrants, because Canada cannot supply the educated, skilled personnel we need. These people make better than middle-class wages. The company spends money to both support young people coming up who could work in this field, as well as spend money to bring in the needed skillset from other countries.

Uh huh. Suppose you give us a list of the types of jobs which Canada can't provide? I have a feeling your workplace mostly makes certain it doesn't have to hire Canadians because it wants to pay less to desperate immigrants

[angrypenguin]

Well I'm an immigrant. (technically, even though I've been here since I was 1.) I'd like to think my folks and I offered something positive to Canada. Long/sob story cut short, my dad went from making $15,000 a year to being in the top 1%. (no, no handouts, just his career progression). I'm not that old yet, and I'm in the top 2% (salaried employee). We have paid our share of taxes, so I'd like to think that as an immigrant, my family has offered some value to Canadians.

Edited October 4, 2015 by angrypenguin

[ToadBrother]

Well I'm an immigrant. (technically, even though I've been here since I was 1.) I'd like to think my folks and I offered something positive to Canada. Long/sob story cut short, my dad went from making $15,000 a year to being in the top 1%. (no, no handouts, just his career progression). I'm not that old yet, and I'm in the top 2% (salaried employee). We have paid our share of taxes, so I'd like to think that as an immigrant, my family has offered some value to Canadians.

I don't think it's that atypical. Maybe not the top 1%, but I think most economic immigrants are coming here to find work, not sit on the dole, and that's a big part of the reason you see them both in Canada and the States in what are considered to be the lowest end service industry jobs.

And frankly, we need them. Whatever Argus may think of getting more productivity out of the current workforce, the current workforce is aging, so even if you could figure out how to make 50 and 60 year olds work more hours, that might buy you a half a decade. But the fact is that Canada, like most industrialized countries, is closing in on a demographic time bomb, that even if we had a baby boom today, would not get us over the hump.

[angrypenguin]

I don't think it's that atypical. Maybe not the top 1%, but I think most economic immigrants are coming here to find work, not sit on the dole, and that's a big part of the reason you see them both in Canada and the States in what are considered to be the lowest end service industry jobs.

And frankly, we need them. Whatever Argus may think of getting more productivity out of the current workforce, the current workforce is aging, so even if you could figure out how to make 50 and 60 year olds work more hours, that might buy you a half a decade. But the fact is that Canada, like most industrialized countries, is closing in on a demographic time bomb, that even if we had a baby boom today, would not get us over the hump.

Agreed. As much as I dislike Ontario's new decision to fund IVF, I suspect it's for that reason that you mentioned. Canada will find itself up [expletive]'s creek if it doesn't fix this issue. I wish Governments would bring more attention to this VERY important matter.

[dialamah]

Uh huh. Suppose you give us a list of the types of jobs which Canada can't provide? I have a feeling your workplace mostly makes certain it doesn't have to hire Canadians because it wants to pay less to desperate immigrants

There is exactly one university in Canada that provides graduates in the field that we hire. I don't know what the overall value of this particular industry is, but our medium sized company has offices in Canada and the States, with net profit in the millions. We are not the only company in this industry.

We aren't allowed to pay less to immigrants than to Canadians (and we don't in case you are now going to claim that we do, anyway). We have to apply through the government, we have to demonstrate where we advertised for the positions within Canada, we have to list the Canadian applicants (if any) and if we decided not to hire them explain why not. We have to identify the skills we're looking for to fill the position, we have to demonstrate that the immigrant has those skills.

Bringing in a foreign worker, temporary or otherwise, through the temporary foreign worker or immigration process takes months, sometimes up to a year, and requires a great deal of paperwork and money. Believe you me, we'd rather hire Canadians than have to pay for the immigration of the skills we're looking for.

Sorry if that bursts your anti-immigrant bubble, but the whole notion that's its easier/cheaper for employers to bring in immigrants is wrong.

[Argus]

There is exactly one university in Canada that provides graduates in the field that we hire.

And yet, you won't identify the jobs, even though you say you're not the only company which hires such workers in Canada, which means you can't be identified from such information.

We have to apply through the government, we have to demonstrate where we advertised for the positions within Canada, we have to list the Canadian applicants (if any) and if we decided not to hire them explain why not.

Yes, so did Tim Hortons. Given the government's lack of followup and investigation of such requests that's essentially meaningless.

Sorry if that bursts your anti-immigrant bubble, but the whole notion that's its easier/cheaper for employers to bring in immigrants is wrong.

That's crap. We've seen far too many cases of companies actually firing locals in order to bring in immigrants to do the work.

[dialamah]

And yet, you won't identify the jobs, even though you say you're not the only company which hires such workers in Canada, which means you can't be identified from such information.

Its a pretty small industry, and this is a public board. So yah, I'm not going to provide any more identifying information. You can call me a liar because of it if you want, but what some partisan moron such as yourself chooses to think is of little importance to me, compared to the respect and privacy I owe my employer.

Anyway, Argus, you are pretty lame so this'll be the last time I respond to you.