Sep 17 leaders debate

[PIK]

What a joke that was, the mod should be fired. He let trudeau and mulcair interrupt harper thru the whole nite, knowing harper would be the gentlemen and not interrupt them. Trudeau showed last nite that he is waaaay over his head and has no manners at all. But harper nailed them with his line about where did you want to live during the recession. And mulcair reference to harpers recession, when we all know it was a global recession, just shows again the mod was biased..

[PIK]

Justin T is headshakingly stupid. Harper and Mulcair must privately wonder in astonishment how he's even on the stage with them.

Just like freedland , always shaking her head. Look very foolish.

[PIK]

Didn't watch the debate. Both the host of the debate, Harper and Mulcair demonstrated their anti-democratic nature by not including May.

I don't bother watching anti-democratic authoritarians debate.

Well may did not get the chance to totally embarrass her self,by being rude and drunk. So it probably helped her by not being there.

[PIK]

He's not the Iraqi information minister. He can say things the way they are when they're plainly obvious, I would think.

Off topic, but I will never for get when he announced that the americans will never enter the city and the tanks are rolling past him. Now back to the topic.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Yes, why not? Everyone deserves a fair voice. If they can field enough candidates that shows that they were able to get at least a thousand people to sign in numerous ridings, that means that they are already representing a portion of the electorate which in a democracy deserves at least a chance at getting elected.

And thankfully we have a parliamentary system and not a winner takes all system like they have in the States so it's not just All about the future prime minister, in fact it's really not, as the next government will likely be a coalition.

Practically speaking, FPTP means no contest in many ridings. In mine, the Liberals are the only viable non-Harper option. A vote for the NDP is effectively a vote for the Conservatives. Never before have accurate polls been so important to determine whom to vote for. Edited September 19, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

What a joke that was, the mod should be fired. He let trudeau and mulcair interrupt harper thru the whole nite, knowing harper would be the gentlemen and not interrupt them. Trudeau showed last nite that he is waaaay over his head and has no manners at all. But harper nailed them with his line about where did you want to live during the recession. And mulcair reference to harpers recession, when we all know it was a global recession, just shows again the mod was biased..

Harper's economic message:

Bad things - global economic conditions.

Good things - all my work.

[Vancouver King]

Never before have accurate polls been so important to determine whom to vote for.

Unfortunately of late, they continue to speak of a 3-way tie, not exactly conducive to strategic voting.

Perhaps we should try examining the entrails of birds .....

[SpankyMcFarland]

Unfortunately of late, they continue to speak of a 3-way tie, not exactly conducive to strategic voting.

Perhaps we should try examining the entrails of birds .....

I guess you have to try and combine the polls with local knowledge. In my riding it is a bit simpler. We have a Liberal incumbent and an NDP candidate who is new to politics. She's not going to poll anything like him. Fortunately, the Conservative candidate is already unpopular from his MHA days in provincial politics even without the Heave Steve effect so the result should not be close. Famous last words.

This election really shows how ridiculous FPTP is in any election that has more than two parties. Harper would never win in a French-style contest against one other opponent but he could well become PM with the support of a third of the electorate.

[cybercoma]

They were one sided and hand picked to paint a negative picture.

But you just said they were data with no context. That's not painting a picture. Painting a picture is contextualizing them.

[Smallc]

But you just said they were data with no context. That's not painting a picture. Painting a picture is contextualizing them.

Lack of context can also paint a picture.

[Accountability Now]

Harper's economic message:

Bad things - global economic conditions.

Good things - all my work.

I have said it before and I will say it again....I laugh at anyone that thinks that Harper or any one 'controls' how things go with our economy. There are way too many external forces and all one can hope for is a competent person that can navigate the ship through this global economy. However, having the right guy in charge of the ship can make a difference.

[cybercoma]

Lack of context can also paint a picture.

Data with no context is by definition not a picture. Data means nothing unless you contextualize it. Numbers don't speak for themselves. You can make inferences, but by doing so you're painting that picture yourself. You're contextualizing it in your own way.

Edited September 18, 2015 by cybercoma

[Smallc]

From the numbers people choose to provide, it's easy to infer meaning. It's like the claim that economic growth is worse under Harper than anyone since WWII. It's true....of the entire western world. Without that context you've chosen to make a point by using pure data in a misleading way.

[PrimeNumber]

I guess you have to try and combine the polls with local knowledge. In my riding it is a bit simpler. We have a Liberal incumbent and an NDP candidate who is new to politics. She's not going to poll anything like him. Fortunately, the Conservative candidate is already unpopular from his MHA days in provincial politics even without the Heave Steve effect so the result should not be close. Famous last words.

This election really shows how ridiculous FPTP is in any election that has more than two parties. Harper would never win in a French-style contest against one other opponent but he could well become PM with the support of a third of the electorate.

Whereas my riding is quite the opposite. We have no green party member running, and the liberal member is young and new to politics. I don't think I've even seen a single sign of his anywhere in the city. Can't win if you don't campaign. On the other hand the local NDP member is a local businessman and family man and has pretty much unanimous support. I counted 7 signs all on different lawns just on my block. The local Conservative candidate is steeped in racist and homophobic rhetoric from his past that is well known to everyone here. I've seen one of his signs at a house in one of the more shady neighborhoods downtown. There was a confederate flag in the window, so I think that one speaks for itself.

Edited September 18, 2015 by PrimeNumber

[69cat]

You are catching on cyber, like TFSAs are only for the wealthy as spoken by Trudeau, Mulcair and the media. No facts or context needed there, simply let the uninformed voter latch on to what they want to hear.

[G Huxley]

Well may did not get the chance to totally embarrass her self,by being rude and drunk. So it probably helped her by not being there.

She told the truth. Something that isn't heard too often in politics.

[G Huxley]

they didn't organize the debate and besides, May is hugging 5%. She doesn't have a chance at all of becoming PM. She won't even meet the threshold for official party status, unless the next government gives it to her anyway.

Yet they both dropped out of the debate that would have included May so it is clear that they are using anti-democratic hijinx to sideline her. And as I have already stated in this thread Democracy isn't decided in advance through induction based on polls. Democracy gives the public a fair even choice of options to choose from and they decide.

You know our ancestors fought for Democracy and you guys are still fighting against it in Canada.

[G Huxley]

I agree with you that the Green party should be present as they field numerous candidates in every province. That is the criteria for me. Unlike the Bloc who only ever ran in Quebec and had no chance of ever being the elected party in Canada

Thank you finally another person who believes in Democracy in this thread. My respects to you.

[69cat]

Nothing against May Huxley. But also keep in mind you can have any platform you want when you have no chance of forming government so Green Party platform may be quite different years from now vs today if they keep gaining ground. Looks like in 1963 it was decided on a threshold to obtain official party status, 12 seats is required. It is what it is but it is not undemocratic for somebody to create a definition at some point in time. And those hosting the forum may simply decide that the members must have official party status. I have seen a few parties come and go and never get invited to national debates. It is simply the way it is and not necessarily a snub to the Green Party. The Bloc Quebecois was not there either and are on the same footing as the Green Party so that would indicate even handedness.

[G Huxley]

Who decided on the 'official party status?' the elite seeking to maintain the status quo so yes it is undemocratic.

Also it applies to the elected bodies, it doesn't apply to the actual election process. e.g. it has no bearing whatsoever on the debates.

May was allowed to be in the debate that Harper and Mulcair jumped ship on.

Edited September 18, 2015 by G Huxley

[Vancouver King]

Yet they both dropped out of the debate that would have included May so it is clear that they are using anti-democratic hijinx to sideline her. And as I have already stated in this thread Democracy isn't decided in advance through induction based on polls. Democracy gives the public a fair even choice of options to choose from and they decide.

You know our ancestors fought for Democracy and you guys are still fighting against it in Canada.

I am under no illusions when it comes to promoting Green policies - to the extent they get out the message, my party, the NDP, suffers accordingly - particularly on Vancouver Island.

That said I consider it a travesty that May was absent from the debate and Green's platform on climate change and green-related proposals were not touched upon.

Keep up your good work, the Green message deserves to be heard.

[G Huxley]

Thank you Vancouver King! Another true supporter of Democracy in Canada here!

[cybercoma]

From the numbers people choose to provide, it's easy to infer meaning. It's like the claim that economic growth is worse under Harper than anyone since WWII. It's true....of the entire western world. Without that context you've chosen to make a point by using pure data in a misleading way.

Data itself has no story to tell. You're creating a story out of it. You said earlier that the data itself paints a picture. It doesn't. The picture is your inferences only. Someone else may interpret it differently. My point is that you're wrong when you say "data points with no context" say anything. They say nothing.

[cybercoma]

Who decided on the 'official party status?'

Here is the entire history of party recognition in the House of Commons for you. http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/bp243-e.htm

[-1=e^ipi]

Justin Trudeau in response to Tom Mulcair in response to long term planning:

"long term starts right now"

Sounds a lot like Keynes.

Edited September 19, 2015 by -1=e^ipi