dre Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Actually, the religion is not in the belief that the environment in is a concern. The religion is the belief that the suggested "solutions" represent a remotely plausible course of action. The manifesto is filled with myths and complete ignorance of how the economy works. My favorite is the laughable notion that 'teaching' and 'childcare' represent jobs of the future when these kinds of jobs cannot exist unless someone else is doing something that generates enough wealth to pay for those jobs. How is that going to happen when the jobs that actually generate the wealth the economy needs to run are outlawed? Seems like its you that shows complete ignorance of how the economy works. You say teaching and childcare could not exist without someone doing something that generates enough wealth to pay for them. But you just described the entire services sector, and you could say the same thing about literally ANY job. What a pearl of economic wisom! ROFLMAO. "A job producing a product or providing a service would not exist without people that want to purchase them and are able to. Stop the god damn presses! Those jobs are fundamentally no different in terms of whether or not they generate wealth, than any other job. The Canadian economy is based 80% on the consumption of domestic products and services. Demand for education, or childcare, or financial services, or legal services or a pedicure or message, is no different than demand for a flat screen TV or an automobile. Its either there or it isnt and if its there or it isnt, and if it is you can generate an an income and and wealth. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
TimG Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Demand for education, or childcare, or financial services, or legal services or a pedicure or message, is no different than demand for a flat screen TV or an automobile.And the demand only exists because the primary industries which supply food, energy and shelter are so efficient that wealth and labour can be redirected to less essential tasks. Mess up the efficiency of the primary industries and you mess up the demand for secondary industries. The "manifesto" wants eliminate the primary and/or severely reduce the efficiency of primary industries and that is what makes their claim that 'childcare' can replace those jobs laughable. That fact that many other secondary industry jobs are would also be affected simply supports my point. Edited September 19, 2015 by TimG Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 You're opposed to the 1 thing that will work sustainably here and solve all of the problems related to GHGs. That says you're not really interested in a solution. We should be building a nuclear grid with some hydro power where it makes sense (Manitoba, BC, Quebec - where we already have it). We shouldn't be chasing pie in the sky solutions when we have 1 right in front of us. And your opinion is based on what? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 I am pretty sure that I have a more technically informed opinion about the economics of electricity generation than you ever will. Really, Tim? Then why don't you share your sources? Look up, buddy. You've provided lots of long-winded pontificating but nothing to back it up. The link does not explain how the numbers were calculated so I can't determine if they are BS or not. You have nerve questioning my link when all you have is unsubstantiated, unqualified opinion. I don't even read your replies anymore - there's no substance to them. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Really, Tim? Then why don't you share your sources? Look up, buddy. You've provided lots of long-winded pontificating but nothing to back it up. You have nerve questioning my link when all you have is unsubstantiated, unqualified opinion. I don't even read your replies anymore - there's no substance to them. I think I'm going to save this for posterity. It's like watching Homer Simpson complain to Marge that she doesn't think things through carefully enough, or Penny sneering at Leonard for not understanding science. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 I think I'm going to save this for posterity. It's like watching Homer Simpson complain to Marge that she doesn't think things through carefully enough, or Penny sneering at Leonard for not understanding science. Knock yourself out. Really. Knock yourself out. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Really, Tim? Then why don't you share your sources?I don't consider the links on renewable energy propaganda sites you provide to be that helpful. I have collected a lot of knowledge over time from many different places. It is not possible to provide a single link to support everything I say especially since part of that knowledge comes from the fact that I work with the electricity generation industry (I have been involved in the deployment of solar plants in the US). And even if I did provide a link it would be likely a blog post or news article which is just someone else's opinion so it is not clear what difference it would make. If you disagree with something I say you could actually attempt to refute instead waving your hands and insisting that you are just going to ignore it because it is just 'opinion'. We guess what: the links you provide are just 'opinion' too so why should anyone care about them? You have nerve questioning my link when all you have is unsubstantiated, unqualified opinion. I don't even read your replies anymore - there's no substance to them.There is lots of substance to them. You just don't want to read them because you don't have the technical ability to respond to the points I make and think if you just ignore my points and post a link or two from a propaganda site that you can make the flaws in your argument go away. In any case, I don't care if you respond. I post because I want others to see the rational counter argument to the claims you make. Edited September 19, 2015 by TimG Quote
Smallc Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 And your opinion is based on what? Reality? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Many governments and universities have been doing this for decades...no NDP or Leap Manifesto required. Research is going on but given what's at stake, it's insufficient. In Canada, we have the most anti-science government in modern history. What science is being funded is mainly applied science, in conjunction with corporations. Battery research may not pay off for a decade or more. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Battery research may not pay off for a decade or more. And that may be how long we have to wait. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 I don't consider the links on renewable energy propaganda sites you provide to be that helpful. You don't like my links? Refute them. Supply some links of your own. Of course you can't because you get your information from crackpot blogs and industry insiders with a stake in the results. I have collected a lot of knowledge over time from many different places. Which is exactly the same as the other 7 billion people on earth. It is not possible to provide a single link to support everything I say especially since part of that knowledge comes from the fact that I work with the electricity generation industry (I have been involved in the deployment of solar plants in the US). And even if I did provide a link it would be likely a blog post or news article which is just someone else's opinion so it is not clear what difference it would make. Aaaaahhh. So you don't like solar and wind because they're threats. As Upton Sinclair put it, It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it. If you disagree with something I say you could actually attempt to refute instead waving your hands and insisting that you are just going to ignore it because it is just 'opinion'. It takes time to go and actually do the research to properly respond to something. You can just pull crap out of your ass and write a book in the time it takes me to research and respond to a page. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Reality? You mean your perception of reality. Like Tim, if you actually have any sources of information, you keep them to yourself. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 And that may be how long we have to wait. There is no 'may'. The path away from fossil fuels will take decades. The intelligent thing to do would be to research heavily in technologies like electrical storage which will be needed along the way. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) You don't like my links? Refute them.I do. Except when your links reference a report which are hidden by a paywall. That makes it impossible to look at the data used to make the claim in order to refute them. Therefore, I can only point out that just because some think tank produces a report that does not mean it is true (yes, I did go to the effort of trying to find the source of news article you linked). Supply some links of your own. Of course you can't because you get your information from crackpot blogs and industry insiders with a stake in the results.Please explain to me why claims made by people who stand to make money from government subsidies to renewable energy are more reliable? Don't they have a stake in governments believing that renewables are more viable that they are? This has to be among the most pathetic conceit of environmentalists: anyone with industry connections cannot be trusted unless they are 'green industry' then whatever they say is gospel. Get over yourself. Everyone is biased. You simply have to factor the bias in when assessing an opinion because even a biased opinion can be right. So you don't like solar and wind because they're threats.Nope. I don't care where the energy comes from. I can make money no matter what source of power is used. My opinion is based on my knowledge of how the electrical system works. But I guess you are not interested in informed opinions. You only care about those opinions which tell you what you want to believe. Edited September 19, 2015 by TimG Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Research is going on but given what's at stake, it's insufficient. In Canada, we have the most anti-science government in modern history. What science is being funded is mainly applied science, in conjunction with corporations. Battery research may not pay off for a decade or more. The point is that such private and public research is very much underway at universities, corporations, and government agencies. I can point to a dozen in my own country and we didn't need no steenkin' Leap Manifesto, or to play political football with "green energy" to oust a ruling government. When Canada was ruled by the Liberals, is wasn't exactly the hotbed of battery research either. IIRC, Ontario blew its wad on failed gas plants and wind turbines that people hate. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Let's review the history of the climate change debate from the perspective of right wing and the industry shills: Climate change is a myth OK, maybe climate change is real but it's due to natural climate fluctuations OK, maybe climate change is real and caused by humans but it won't be that bad OK, maybe climate change is real and cause by humans and it will be bad but it's too expensive to do anything about it OK maybe it's real, caused by humans, will be bad and we can do something but we need to replace yesterday's expensive, centralized, complicated, dangerous, and polluting solutions with solutions tomorrow's expensive, centralized, complicated solutions that are either just as dangerous, just as polluting or don't actually exist yet. I'm willing to bet that many of you that are now insisting that nuclear/thorium/fusion/antimatter are the only possible options if we don't want to go back in live in caves spent time arguing one or more of the previous points. Don't make me go back in MLW archives and prove it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 The point is that such private and public research is very much underway at universities, corporations, and government agencies. I can point to a dozen in my own country and we didn't need no steenkin' Leap Manifesto, or to play political football with "green energy" to oust a ruling government. When Canada was ruled by the Liberals, is wasn't exactly the hotbed of battery research either. IIRC, Ontario blew its wad on failed gas plants and wind turbines that people hate. The amount of money that is going into battery research is a rounding error compared to the trillions we spend pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground. A lot of the research is partly to support good PR for dirty or immoral corporations. Look! We spent a million dollars over 5 years to do a bit of research. Oh, yeah and our profit last quarter was $3 billion. And I don't care what you think of the Manifesto. For something that you think is so irrelevant, you sure spend a lot of time thinking about it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Reality? Ssst! Don't bring that up! You'll frighten him! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 A very pedestrian federal election and NDP supported "manifesto" in Canada will have zero impact on so called climate change no matter who wins however many seats. Even if Mulcair pulls dilithium crystals out of his butt. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
TimG Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Let's review the history of the climate change debate from the perspective of right wing...What a pathetically irrelevant line of argument. The question has never been about whether climate change is happening or not. The question is what price is worth paying to deal with the hypothetical risk. You, through a combination of wishful thinking and pure ignorance, believe that the only barrier to a CO2 free nirvana is political will. Those people tasked with keeping the lights on 24x7 have a very different opinion on the scale of the challenge. Here is a detailed analysis for the UK that makes the most optimistic assumptions possible in order to determine how the UK could go CO2 free. Even with these optimistic assumptions: http://www.withouthotair.com/Synopsis.html Any plan that doesn’t make heavy use of nuclear power or “clean coal” has to make up the energy balance using renewable power bought in from other countries. The most promising renewable for large-scale development is concentrating solar power in deserts. Except that leaving the UK dependent on power from unstable North African countries is asking for disaster which means in practice the only way to go CO2 free in the UK is with nuclear and/or clean coal which is the point I started with. The report is filled with many such optimistic assumptions that are practically impossible yet this report represents the best possible scenario put together by a knowledgeable person who thinks CO2 is a huge problem. But my guess is you will ignore the fine print and caveats in the document and only look at the headline which overstates the case. Edited September 19, 2015 by TimG Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 The amount of money that is going into battery research is a rounding error compared to the trillions we spend pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground. A lot of the research is partly to support good PR for dirty or immoral corporations. Look! We spent a million dollars over 5 years to do a bit of research. Oh, yeah and our profit last quarter was $3 billion. And I don't care what you think of the Manifesto. For something that you think is so irrelevant, you sure spend a lot of time thinking about it. Just as I suspected....it's only about politics and tree hugging for you. Nothing at all to do with actual public and private investment in energy research. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 Please explain to me why claims made by people who stand to make money from government subsidies to renewable energy are more reliable? Don't they have a stake in governments believing that renewables are more viable that they are? This has to be among the most pathetic conceit of environmentalists: anyone with industry connections cannot be trusted unless they are 'green industry' then whatever they say is gospel. Get over yourself. Everyone is biased. You simply have to factor the bias in when assessing an opinion because even a biased opinion can be right. I read and quote a huge variety of sources. Most of what I quote comes from mainstream media. Yesterday I quoted the Union of Concerned Scientists. You, on the other hand, only believe what people in your industry tell you. Nope. I don't care where the energy comes from. I can make money no matter what source of power is used. Maybe you can. Or maybe you can't. I doubt very much you really know. But there are a lot of electricity executives who are crapping their pants at the thought of being nothing more than grid providers where the energy is produced by a widely distributed network. How do they make a huge profit from that? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted September 19, 2015 Report Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) I read and quote a huge variety of sources. Most of what I quote comes from mainstream media. Yesterday I quoted the Union of Concerned Scientists.None of which are authoritive and are all basically opinion (the UCS is a AGW propaganda outfit). I fail to see why you think your linking to unsubstantiated opinions on other websites constitutes an argument. I at least explain why I have the opinions I do. But there are a lot of electricity executives who are crapping their pants at the thought of being nothing more than grid providers where the energy is produced by a widely distributed network. How do they make a huge profit from that?Actually, this is a myth that green energy cultists like you tell yourselves. Companies that distribute electricity are not threatened in any significant way. If EVs take off demand will go through the roof. If people have solar panels they still will want grid power and will have to pay a connection fee even if their usage is down. EXECs running companies that use coal are worried mostly about the cheap natural gas which makes it easier for politician legislate coal out of existence. Until all that fracked natural gas appeared coal's future was secure because no politician wants to be blamed for turning off the power. Renewables are bit players and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Edited September 19, 2015 by TimG Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 None of which are authoritive and are all basically opinion (the UCS is a AGW propaganda outfit). I fail to see why you think your linking to unsubstantiated opinions on other websites constitutes an argument. I at least explain why I have the opinions I do. So, I take my information from a variety of sources and that makes them "propaganda". You get yours exclusively from industry insiders who have a vested interest in the status quo and that makes them "authoritative". I readily share my sources and yours apparently have no names. I can definitely see how you are so sure of yourself. :rolleyes: Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted September 20, 2015 Report Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) So, I take my information from a variety of sources and that makes them "propaganda".I see you have some reading comprehension problems. You said you quoted opinions in the media and the 'Union of Concerned Scientists'. My response is you just linked to a bunch of opinions and noted that the UCS is an AGW propaganda site which means it is also an opinion. I challenged you to explain why quoting a bunch of opinions in the media is some how better than what I do. You get yours exclusively from industry insiders who have a vested interest in the status quo and that makes them "authoritative".I read all of the same sources that you read because, unlike you, I am actually interested in reading and understanding opinions that I don't necessarily agree with because sometimes I can learn something new. However, unlike you I actually have insight into you the system actually works today which means I can distinguish between opinions which are reasonable and opinions which are delusional fantasies. You, OTOH, seem to seek out opinions that support your delusional fantasies and refuse to even read carefully reasoned counter arguments. Perhaps the most ridiculous aspect of your hypocrisy is how you constantly berate people for questioning the objectivity of climate scientists but you immediately dismiss the opinions of people who, whether you like it or not, are experts on building and managing the electricity grid and obviously know what they are doing because you have access to reliable power. Edited September 20, 2015 by TimG Quote
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