Ontario teachers complaining AGAIN

[Big Guy]

.... There are some really talented and dedicated teachers, after all. They're in the minority, but they exist. Most teachers are mediocrities who didn't have any real calling and didn't really have any idea what to do with their lives but just wanted a well-paid job with great benefits and summers off. And we've made it so they can't be fired, however poor a job they do. Why is that again? What is the purpose of tenure? No other profession on earth has it.

So we have lots of overpaid, mediocre teachers who couldn't earn half as much in the private sector who are literally stealing money from children's educations. Because the higher their pay and benefits, the more crowded class rooms have to be, and the less money there is for things like computers.

...

I was involved in all aspects of teaching from the inside and from the outside for 35 years. While you are entitled to your opinion your evaluation is incorrect. Like any profession you will find some poor teachers and some exceptional teachers. Most teachers are very good at their jobs.

As far as compensation is concerned, you and me are the only people who are being paid adequately. Everybody else is overpaid and underworked.

[Freddy]

HAHA. I meant federal ridings in BC.

As for the BCTF. I had an awakening and realize they are the problem. I would like to apologize for our spat in the strike thread, PCT. You were right and I was wrong.

With guys like this being a strong voice in the BCTF then one has to ...............

https://bctfexposed.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/who-is-tobey-steeves/

I've only witnessed this on a forum once before. Thank you for giving me my second experience of this very rare phenomenon. This may very well be a example of a human rising above his own animal instinct. Edited September 21, 2015 by Freddy

[Scotty]

The "children hating" rhetoric is idiotic.

Okay, but I was replying to your idiotic rhetoric, so phhht.

[Scotty]

As far as compensation is concerned, you and me are the only people who are being paid adequately. Everybody else is overpaid and underworked.

The way to asses whether people are being paid adequately is to look at the level of specialized skills needed for the job, and how many excess applicants there are. Now for teaching, the first is very low and the second is extremely high. The same goes for police and firefighters. There are lineups a mile long for these positions. If we cut their salaries by a third and slash benefits there would still be lineups a mile long. The number of students continues to decline, their performance on mandated tests continues to decline, yet the cost of teaching them continues to rise higher than inflation due to burgeoning teacher salaries and benefits.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain why teachers are the only people who can't be fired, regardless of their laziness and incompetence. Why do teachers have tenure anyway? Who else has tenure other than the senate?

[Big Guy]

I am not defending teachers or their incomes - I am attempting to correct a few errors;

Teachers can be and are fired for a variety of reasons. Some are placed on "sick leave" if objectively deemed no longer able to perform. As to specialized skills, having the ability to graduate from high school and attain 2 University degrees is a reasonable specialized skill. The ability to stand in front of, manage, instruct, sympathize with 35 teenagers in closed space for more than 1 hour at a time is a reasonable specialized skill. You may disagree.

A fair number of student teachers who work through their practicum quit during the process and yet others are advised strongly that they should use their education to pursue an other career.

I do not begrudge teachers or lawyers or doctors or athletes or entertainers or ... for what they earn. They receive what people are prepared to pay them. In athletics the average salaries are;

1) NBA: $5.15 million, a figure expected to rise in the coming years due to the collective bargaining agreement.

2) MLB: $3.2 million

3) NHL: $2.4 million

4) NFL: $1.9 million

As taxpayers we are all employers of those who work for the government; Politicians, teachers, maintenance crews, caretakers, educational assistants, public service clerks and ... are overpaid - or so most of us believe. So be it.

I am still sure that you and me are the only folks being paid adequately (or underpaid) and everybody else is overpaid and underworked.

BTW - Who (besides us two ) do you think is being underpaid?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Big Guy

[Go.Leafs]

It appears that the union has proven its value to the working class. I sense a lot of people are envious here. But instead of bashing the teachers maybe we should be pushing and supporting unions in other industries as well?

[Michael Hardner]

But instead of bashing the teachers maybe we should be pushing and supporting unions in other industries as well?

I see your point, but aren't there limits as to how much a union can give to its members ? In the business sector, we regulate and mitigate the amount of power any entity can have, for the public good.

[Canada_First]

It appears that the union has proven its value to the working class. I sense a lot of people are envious here. But instead of bashing the teachers maybe we should be pushing and supporting unions in other industries as well?

Public sector union members are not the working class. They make sometimes north of 100k a year. They have too much power and should be banned outright through legislation. We cannot afford to pay more and more forever.

[Black Dog]

Public sector union members are not the working class. They make sometimes north of 100k a year. They have too much power and should be banned outright through legislation. We cannot afford to pay more and more forever.

Sure, let's see how great the economy does when everyone except top executives are making like $50K a year.

[Canada_First]

Sure, let's see how great the economy does when everyone except top executives are making like $50K a year.

I have no idea what this means.

[Black Dog]

I have no idea what this means.

It means that, by advocating for making public sector unions illegal, you're essentially advocating a race to the bottom that would undermine the economy more than rising public sector wages ever could. What happened in the private sector since unions lost their hold should be instructive as a cautionary tale, not a model.

[Canada_First]

It means that, by advocating for making public sector unions illegal, you're essentially advocating a race to the bottom that would undermine the economy more than rising public sector wages ever could. What happened in the private sector since unions lost their hold should be instructive as a cautionary tale, not a model.

Public sector wages are too high. They don't care about non union members. Without these unions taxes could be reduced since we would no longer need to inflated wages to people. Would save a lot of cash. Most public sectors should be paid half to two thirds of what they're paid now. Make them illegal and give them all a wage cut. If they don't like that fire them. In tough times we all need to tighten our belts. Public sector just gets more greedy.

[Black Dog]

Public sector wages are too high. They don't care about non union members. Without these unions taxes could be reduced since we would no longer need to inflated wages to people. Would save a lot of cash. Most public sectors should be paid half to two thirds of what they're paid now. Make them illegal and give them all a wage cut. If they don't like that fire them. In tough times we all need to tighten our belts. Public sector just gets more greedy.

And I'm sure this is based on a sound and thorough analysis and not just something you pulled out of your ass.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Public sector union members are not the working class. They make sometimes north of 100k a year. They have too much power and should be banned outright through legislation. We cannot afford to pay more and more forever.

I know plumbers, electricians and steam fitters that clear well over 100k.

Are they no longer working class?

Is the walmart manager with an arts diploma more working class than an electrician because they make less?

I find this concept amusing to contemplate.

[Canada_First]

And I'm sure this is based on a sound and thorough analysis and not just something you pulled out of your ass.

Cops making 120k. Bus drivers making 70k. Teachers making 100k. Yeah they can all live on a third less.

[Black Dog]

I know plumbers, electricians and steam fitters that clear well over 100k.

Are they no longer working class?

Is the walmart manager with an arts diploma more working class than an electrician because they make less?

I find this concept amusing to contemplate.

I know guys working the rigs in Alberta who were pulling down that and then some.

[Black Dog]

Cops making 120k. Bus drivers making 70k. Teachers making 100k. Yeah they can all live on a third less.

How much do you make?

[Pct2017]

Public sector union members are not the working class. They make sometimes north of 100k a year. They have too much power and should be banned outright through legislation. We cannot afford to pay more and more forever.

I think you really have to look at both sides of the equation before you advocate banning public sector unions. The unions are always going to press hard for better wages and bennies for their members. That is why they exist. But instead of howling at them, why are you not turning at least part of your angst at your duly elected governments? It is the politicians and their minions who have agreed to pay the wages that the unions have demanded/negotiated. Why not advocate for better fiscal responsibility on the part of the government on election day. There is no rule that states that the employer must give anything to the union during negotiations, but they must have the stones to say so and back it up with action. Unfortunately, governments of all stripes have become used to taking the easy path and simply saying yes to union demands, in part because they truly do not believe that there will be any political fall out for doing so. Only the electorate can change this mindset.

If you want to see an example of how it can be done, take a look at the BCTF/BC government negotiations last year. The BC government simply said no to the demands of the BCTF and then they held their ground. The BCTF had no idea what to do and eventually agreed to what I believe, as a taxpayer, was a reasonable settlement.

[Scotty]

I was involved in all aspects of teaching from the inside and from the outside for 35 years. While you are entitled to your opinion your evaluation is incorrect. Like any profession you will find some poor teachers and some exceptional teachers. Most teachers are very good at their jobs.

What evidence do you have for this? We are paying teachers more to produce students who are more poorly educated, and who fair worse and worse on standardized tests. And since we can't fire teachers for poor performance, the problem gets no better.

As far as compensation is concerned, you and me are the only people who are being paid adequately. Everybody else is overpaid and underworked.

So your position is we cannot ever judge anyone's compensation as adequate, inadequate or too generous? Ever?

There is a simple formula for determining if a given profession is overpaid. That is, how many qualified people are applying for the job at the listed salary? Do you have far and away more qualified applicants for every available job than are needed? If so, then you are paying too much. We could fire every teacher in Ontario tomorrow, lower their pay by 25%, and fill every position the next day with the huge number of 'teachers' we graduate every year. Why are so many people going into teaching? Because it takes no particular skill, that is, it's within easy reach of almost anyone who wants to do it, and the compensation is overly generous. Not to mention it's almost impossible to fire a teacher for poor performance.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Scotty

[Scotty]

I know guys working the rigs in Alberta who were pulling down that and then some.

Which is hard, grueling physical labour. And they wouldn't be getting that pay rate if there were fifty applicants for every job, as there is with police and firefighters.

[Scotty]

I know plumbers, electricians and steam fitters that clear well over 100k.

Are they no longer working class?

Is the walmart manager with an arts diploma more working class than an electrician because they make less?

I find this concept amusing to contemplate.

White collar jobs are not working class jobs. Why is this so difficult to figure out? It's not based on compensation but education. Teachers and most other public servants are not working class, cops and firefighters are, but are paid far and away too much for the skill set and education required for their jobs.

[TimG]

It is the politicians and their minions who have agreed to pay the wages that the unions have demanded/negotiated. Why not advocate for better fiscal responsibility on the part of the government on election day.

How many private corporations have management whose jobs depend on the people they are supposed to be negotiating with? How many private corporations can't go bankrupt and can raise taxes to to collect whatever revenue is needed to settle wage demands? 'free market' wage negotiations are simply not possible in the public sector and the taxpayer always loses unless a government has to guts the legislate a settlement without binding arbitration (binding arbitration is simply a way to screw taxpayers even more). Edited October 13, 2015 by TimG

[Bonam]

White collar jobs are not working class jobs. Why is this so difficult to figure out? It's not based on compensation but education. Teachers and most other public servants are not working class, cops and firefighters are, but are paid far and away too much for the skill set and education required for their jobs.

I don't think there's any merit to maintaining the idea of "class" as strictly based on education. Just about anyone can go to college and get a degree. The real test is whether someone can develop a useful skill and retain gainful employment in a field that pays them well. That skill can be "rocket science" but it can also be plumbing, both pay about the same and allow one to live a similar middle class lifestyle. There are plenty of other college degrees which do little or nothing to help their graduates earn more than what a minimum wage job would offer. In fact, stats show that some degrees (once you take the 4 years of school instead of employment and the cost of tuition into account) have a net lifetime return that is negative compared to if someone just entered the workforce directly after high school.

Wages are largely based on supply and demand and depending on economic conditions, some skills that take only minimal education can be just as (or more) valuable as ones that takes 4 (or even more) years of post-secondary education. And the only place all this really breaks down in is public unions, where salary is completely disconnected from the supply/demand of the skills needed for various jobs.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Bonam

[MiddleClassCentrist]

There are plenty of other college degrees which do little or nothing to help their graduates earn more than what a minimum wage job would offer. In fact, stats show that some degrees (once you take the 4 years of school instead of employment and the cost of tuition into account) have a net lifetime return that is negative compared to if someone just entered the workforce directly after high school.

Art and Music are examples for Men. Take either of those degrees and you are worth less than if you hadn't.

[Scotty]

I don't think there's any merit to maintaining the idea of "class" as strictly based on education. Just about anyone can go to college and get a degree. The real test is whether someone can develop a useful skill and retain gainful employment in a field that pays them well. That skill can be "rocket science" but it can also be plumbing, both pay about the same and allow one to live a similar middle class lifestyle.

All right, how about this then? If you do physical labour, as opposed to sitting at a desk or computer or counter, you're probably working class