Muslim world Hypocrisy

[Argus]

Once again, the focus should be on the bad ideas resulting in the poor behaviour rather than the group of people who have those ideas. Anyone can hold bad ideas and behave poorly so what point is there to dwell on this group or that group?

Sure, I realize we will use general terms at times about groups etc but as long as the focus shifts to the ideas/behaviours rather than the people themselves then all should be fine.

I'm not even sure what you mean when you say focus on 'bad ideas resulting in poor behaviour'. If these 'bad ideas' are inextricably linked to the cultural value set of a given group then how is it unfair to criticize the group as a whole and demand it revise those values?

[Argus]

The point is that you can make yourself feel GREAT by defining a group, of course of people different from you, then generalizing that group as having a negative attribute that you don't share.

More sanctimonious bleating about how morally superior it is to be non judgmental about the crude, backward and violent behaviour of other cultures.

In fact, it is your self-appointed role as noble defender of the minority which is designed to make yourself feel good about yourself.

[Argus]

Choosing of 'groups', choosing of 'state' tends to be done to confirm biases. Canadians and Americans are the two most similar peoples I can think of.

Really? And do tell me about the many cultural, religious, linguistic and historical differences between the Palestinians and the Jordanians.

[marcus]

More sanctimonious bleating about how morally superior it is to be non judgmental about the crude, backward and violent behaviour of other cultures.

In fact, it is your self-appointed role as noble defender of the minority which is designed to make yourself feel good about yourself.

You seem to be too stubborn to accept that it's wrong to paint large group of people that are connected by something like a religion, with one brush stroke.

Edited June 12, 2015 by marcus

[Michael Hardner]

More sanctimonious bleating about how morally superior it is to be non judgmental about the crude, backward and violent behaviour of other cultures.

I never said I'm morally superior. I think you're revealing your moral inferiority complex here.

In fact, it is your self-appointed role as noble defender of the minority which is designed to make yourself feel good about yourself.

Well, I can't say you're wrong there. I did explain what makes others feel good, so it's fair for you to try to identify what makes me feel good.

Really? And do tell me about the many cultural, religious, linguistic and historical differences between the Palestinians and the Jordanians.

I don't know about this - if you do, please tell me; I love to learn.

[cybercoma]

it would appear you are arguing any attempt to use the word Muslim is negative

No. Just the negative uses.

[msj]

I'm not even sure what you mean when you say focus on 'bad ideas resulting in poor behaviour'. If these 'bad ideas' are inextricably linked to the cultural value set of a given group then how is it unfair to criticize the group as a whole and demand it revise those values?

The problem is with treating a "culture" as being homogenized.

That "they" all think and act a certain way that allows "us" to criticize "them."

The focus is then on "them" rather than on the ideas that "they" hold dear.

So, challenge the bad ideas - no matter who holds the bad ideas - rather than pick on the group.

It is a shift of focus - yes, I realize in reality we must identify groups as I have done myself in other threads.

But, once again, the intention is to not pick on that group, but, rather, to pick on the ideas that people within that group adhere to.

Perhaps this is too subtle a notion and I'm probably not explaining it very well but there it is.

[cybercoma]

msj, this has been explained many times in threads across this forum over many years. I don't think the posters who need to get it are ever going to. When pinned down on the point you're making, they tend to say that they're just using "Muslim" as shorthand or that Muslims who don't hold the most vile beliefs are not real Muslims. It's pointless to even argue it anymore.

[Argus]

You seem to be too stubborn to accept that it's wrong to paint large group of people that are connected by something like a religion, with one brush stroke.

Got it in one.

[WWWTT]

Choosing of 'groups', choosing of 'state' tends to be done to confirm biases. Canadians and Americans are the two most similar peoples I can think of.

You ever date a woman from Korea?

WWWTT

[Argus]

The problem is with treating a "culture" as being homogenized.

That's a very Canadian thing to say. I think, however, that it arises from the perspective of a cosmopolitan country with people from many different backgrounds. We come to think this is the norm rather than the exception. Muslim countries generally have one single religion which is set as THE religion, and government, media, education and everything else is run on the basis of respect and reverence for that religion. Nor is the broad spectrum of cultural and political difference found in Canada the norm in Muslim countries. Generally far from it, in fact.

That "they" all think and act a certain way that allows "us" to criticize "them."

What if polls show that 70%, 80%, 90% of "Them" DO, in fact, think in a certain way?

So, challenge the bad ideas - no matter who holds the bad ideas - rather than pick on the group.

It is a shift of focus - yes, I realize in reality we must identify groups as I have done myself in other threads.

Yes, there's really no getting around it. It would be infinitely silly to talk about an issue like Muslim extremism and not talk

about Muslims groups, or Muslim countries and how the behaviour of these Muslim countries and Muslim groups is something which needs

to be changed.

But, once again, the intention is to not pick on that group, but, rather, to pick on the ideas that people within that group adhere

to.

It's not like it's just a few members of that group, you know. It's the majority, in many cases, at least according to the polls.

We have no problem collectively criticizing a wide variety of things which exhibit a certain similar defect even when we acknowledge

not all of the things in that group have that same defect. I really don't see why we can't do it to groups of people too.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Argus

[Rue]

MSJ I got your point. When you state its unfair to generalize a whole people because of the negative beliefs of a component of that whole, that is logical.

My argument now is directed at Michael H who uses a double standard and engages in assumptions based on generalizations as to what he thinks Argus or I or others argue when we criticize certain Muslims.

AS for Islamic society as a whole, is it impossible not to make such generalizations at all because Michael H says so?

I disagree with much of sharia law, and Islamic society in particular its beliefs as to dhimmitude, conversion, homosexuality, citizenship, huan rights, woman's rights, children's rights, its treatment of people with dark skin, its treatment of workers who try unionize, its treatment of Christians, Druze, Jews Bahaiis,Zoroastreans,Kurds,Berbers Yazidis, Ahmaidya Muslims to nae but a few. Does that make me a bigot? Its widespread. I challenge the laws and those people who believe in them.

Are you saying since the majority of Muslims follow and agree with those laws, I can't criticize them?

Read back Michael H. His responses knee jerk and throw out the Muslim card on Argus to avoid the discussion as to challenging such things. I say bull.

If you tell me don't say all Muslims are bad or terrorists, yes I agree. I do get to challenge those though who use their religion to justify things I disagree with and when they engage in terrorism I will fight back but no do not assume that makes me hate Muslims.

Now one last thing.Coming from you I take your point and concede I misunderstood some of it and you have clarified as far as I a concerned as best as you can because its a subtle point, a fine line as to when generalization becomes hateful and incites hate.

Where I get annoyed is the inconsistency in the standards of judgement Michae H uses depending on who he thinks is he target of criticism.

Also I would like him to finish his stereotyping of American and Canadian similiarities. He throws out the stereotypes but won't explain his basis for them when challenged.

As for Marcus he engages in the very things he and Michael H challenge as wrong when the subject of criticism is Jews,Zionists, Israelis and Americans. So he has zero credibility on this thread.

Now tell e when has Michael H challenged Marcus or Hudson Jones or Jacee or the rest of the anti American-Israeli entourage as he now does Argus with the same arguments when they negatively stereotype all Jews, Israel,s Zionists, Americans, anyone he disagrees with? Hmmm? Can you tell me? He does not. In ,y opinion his standard is selective depending on who he thinks is criticized. Because he is also a moderator I fail to see how he can remain neutral for this reason.

I say it with respect not as an insult. I a challenging his biases and telling him and myself as well and everyone, we all generalize on his board to generate discussion. Why its called out buy the sae people when its against Muslims but never when its against Jews, Israelis, Zionists, American, Harper supporters, conservatives I argue is because of their bias and so they are in no position to criticize Argus when they do the same thing.

As I have stated any times , there is no point in a skunk criticizing me for farting.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Are you saying since the majority of Muslims follow and agree with those laws, I can't criticize them?

No.

Read back Michael H. His responses knee jerk and throw out the Muslim card on Argus to avoid the discussion as to challenging such things. I say bull.

Cite ?

Where I get annoyed is the inconsistency in the standards of judgement Michae H uses depending on who he thinks is he target of criticism.

Cite ?

Also I would like him to finish his stereotyping of American and Canadian similiarities. He throws out the stereotypes but won't explain his basis for them when challenged.

I don't think I have actually been challenged, and to say I won't explain it is ridiculous. It's simple: 200-odd years ago we were the same country. We have evolved much in the same way and share a culture which is largely the same.

Now tell e when has Michael H challenged Marcus or Hudson Jones or Jacee or the rest of the anti American-Israeli entourage as he now does Argus with the same arguments when they negatively stereotype all Jews, Israel,s Zionists, Americans, anyone he disagrees with?

I have disciplined posters who have made anti-Jewish statements and even helped ban a few I think. Does that answer it ?

[drummindiver]

Choosing of 'groups', choosing of 'state' tends to be done to confirm biases. Canadians and Americans are the two most similar peoples I can think of.

Then why the incredible bigotry on these forums against Americans

[drummindiver]

Really? And do tell me about the many cultural, religious, linguistic and historical differences between the Palestinians and the Jordanians.

lol. Excellent point.

“Palestine has never existed – before or since – as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.”

“Palestine and Jordan are one…” said King Abdullah in 1948

“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,”said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981

In 1976, Zahir Muhsein, who was an executive committee member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, stated there were no differences between self-called "Palestinians" and the peoples of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

[Michael Hardner]

Then why the incredible bigotry on these forums against Americans

Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe people tend to fight with family more than strangers ?

[Rue]

If you have disciplined and banned people who engaged in hatred of anyone Michael H I Take your word for that and stand corrected and thank you .I appreciate as a moderator you could not explain further but that is good enough for me as an answer you are an honest man and that is that on that point.

In terms of citing your posts if you really want me to I can and you can of course deny each time my interpretation of you inappropriately playing the Muslim card so I won't unless you really do want to get into a debate on how the Muslim card is used by you and others to avoid criticizing Muslim extremists.

We can start a thread on that.

As for your contention Canadians and Americans are similar because we came from the same continent and colonial administrator speaks for itself.

Yah yah I know all white people look the same to you. That is how \I equate that absurd answer to your stereotype of both Americans and Canadians.

[Michael Hardner]

If you have disciplined and banned people who engaged in hatred of anyone Michael H

I would say that we have banned more viscious anti-Semitic posters, and don't remember banning anyone for anti-Muslim posts. The former groups seem to be organized, albeit loosely, along the lines you would expect.

deny each time my interpretation of you inappropriately playing the Muslim card so I won't unless you really do want to get into a debate on how the Muslim card is used by you and others to avoid criticizing Muslim extremists.

I didn't deny it - I asked you for an example.

As for your contention Canadians and Americans are similar because we came from the same continent and colonial administrator speaks for itself.

Yah yah I know all white people look the same to you. That is how \I equate that absurd answer to your stereotype of both Americans and Canadians.

Well, you didn't refute my claim. In case you're unaware, I myself am Canadian and rather like our shared culture.

[marcus]

lol. Excellent point.

“Palestine has never existed – before or since – as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.”

“Palestine and Jordan are one…” said King Abdullah in 1948

“The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,”said King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981

In 1976, Zahir Muhsein, who was an executive committee member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, stated there were no differences between self-called "Palestinians" and the peoples of Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

People like you have the chutzpah to pretend Palestinians never existed, but then cheer for a colonization project where you saw European Jews, with no connection to the land, come in and push the inhabitants out.

You go ahead and find a quote from some military commander no one has heard of and I will find you dozens of quotes from a former Jewish terrorist and Israeli prime minister who disagree with the myth you're trying to spread - Palestinians are real and have always been real:

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians" pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

[msj]

That's a very Canadian thing to say. I think, however, that it arises from the perspective of a cosmopolitan country with people from many different backgrounds. We come to think this is the norm rather than the exception.

I am curious as to how much you have travelled to foreign lands?

I find travel has changed how I see other groups of people and highly recommend it to everyone.

Muslim countries generally have one single religion which is set as THE religion, and government, media, education and everything else is run on the basis of respect and reverence for that religion. Nor is the broad spectrum of cultural and political difference found in Canada the norm in Muslim countries. Generally far from it, in fact.Muslim countries generally have one single religion which is set as THE religion, and government, media, education and everything else is run on the basis of respect and reverence for that religion. Nor is the broad spectrum of cultural and political difference found in Canada the norm in Muslim countries. Generally far from it, in fact.

I agree to some extent here. It sucks to have religion forced on you with the full backing of the state so Muslims have my sympathy from the point of view.

What if polls show that 70%, 80%, 90% of "Them" DO, in fact, think in a certain way?

I believe in freedom of thought so - so what?

Yes, I agree that it concerns me that large amounts of people can actually believe it is moral to kill a cartoonist or to kill an apostate.

I am also concerned to the extent that such attitudes help sanitize Islamism to continue to allow the killing and oppression of people (Muslims and non-Muslims).

But that's all we got. We can try to change minds by supporting Ex-Muslims (and Ex-any religion) etc etc.

Yes, there's really no getting around it. It would be infinitely silly to talk about an issue like Muslim extremism and not talk

about Muslims groups, or Muslim countries and how the behaviour of these Muslim countries and Muslim groups is something which needs

to be changed.

Sure, and it is pointless to then use such a general basis to then assume that all Muslims are terrorists.

I mean, what is the point of saying that?

Why not focus on the ideas that certain people have and point out why those are bad ideas instead of extrapolating the actions and behaviours of individuals to an entire population of 1.6 billion people?

Edited June 15, 2015 by msj

[drummindiver]

People like you have the chutzpah to pretend Palestinians never existed, but then cheer for a colonization project where you saw European Jews, with no connection to the land, come in and push the inhabitants out.

You go ahead and find a quote from some military commander no one has heard of and I will find you dozens of quotes from a former Jewish terrorist and Israeli prime minister who disagree with the myth you're trying to spread - Palestinians are real and have always been real:

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians" pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

People like me? What, who aren't bigoted against Israel based on ignorance? K, that's fair.

I've never said they didn't exist. I said they didn't exist as Palestinians. If you think they did, you are wrong. There is a little thing called history that proves this.

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

Yasser Arafat

Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell land to Israelis.

Yasser Arafat

It's always convenient for certain people to heap accusations on Israel.

Yasser Arafat

Other David Ben Gurion quotes. These ones are verifiable, whereas yours is not.

• Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
  • Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press.
• We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground;

Israel offers peace. The others...not so much.

• We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
  • Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)

• Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
  • Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948

[marcus]

People like me? What, who aren't bigoted against Israel based on ignorance? K, that's fair.

I've never said they didn't exist. I said they didn't exist as Palestinians. If you think they did, you are wrong. There is a little thing called history that proves this.

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

Yasser Arafat

Our law is a Jordanian law that we inherited, which applies to both the West Bank and Gaza, and sets the death penalty for those who sell land to Israelis.

Yasser Arafat

It's always convenient for certain people to heap accusations on Israel.

Yasser Arafat

Other David Ben Gurion quotes. These ones are verifiable, whereas yours is not.

• Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
  • Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press.
• We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground;

Israel offers peace. The others...not so much.

• We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
  • Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)

• Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
  • Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948

Quotes are awesome.

Let's see some more quotes from the former terrorist leader, Begin:

Soon after Menachem Begin and the Likud party won the Israeli election in 1977, the government's foreign policy was stated as follows:

"the Jewish people have unchallengeable, eternal, historic right to the Land of Israel [including the West Bank and Gaza Strip], the inheritance of their forefathers," and pledged to build rural and urban exclusive Jewish colonies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip." (Iron Wall, p. 354-355)

It's always been about "Greater Israel" and colonizing all of Palestine. The plan has always been to not allow a Palestinian State to be formed.

By the way, here is some history that Golda Meir pretended it didn't exist:

The area has always been called Palestine. The area was written in ancient Greek writings. It was part of the Roman empire, Byzantine and numerous others and it has always been referred to as Palestine. Up until the late 1800's, the inhabitants of the land were over 90% Muslim Arabs (who have a closer tie to the ancient Jews. Much closer than the Jews who migrated from Europe), close to 9% Christian Arabs and the rest Jews. Jews with real connection to the land. Then the mass Zionist migration and colonization project started from Europe.

[GostHacked]

Then why the incredible bigotry on these forums against Americans

Not against Americans, but specific elements within their government that people here are against. For example, the military industrial complex, the cozy relationship between government and banks, elitist rich influencing government through money and power. Not sure how many times this needs to be drilled into thick skulls.

[drummindiver]

Not against Americans, but specific elements within their government that people here are against. For example, the military industrial complex, the cozy relationship between government and banks, elitist rich influencing government through money and power. Not sure how many times this needs to be drilled into thick skulls.

Thick skulls? lol

Thanks.

I'm not Jacee, so I won't point any fingers.

Bigots justify bigotry. If your claim is that there isn't bigotry on MLW against Americans, it's very easily proven. Do you really want me to take, what, 5 seconds and find you an almost endless barrage?

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Stop the thread drift and the personal attacks.