msj Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) So, finally getting around to this story with respect to sexism and religious freedom/accommodation. It seems that several plane flights have been delayed thanks to Orthodox Jews who insist on not sitting next to woman. See this story and the links within it: https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/jews-on-a-plane-a-readers-take/ I particularly like the video in that story although I am sure we have all seen it by now. Anyway, just curious as to people's thoughts on this. ---- Ok, got the poll to work now. I say to hell with the Orthodox religious nut jobs.... women before wacko ideas about sitting next to women. Edited May 18, 2015 by msj Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Toss anyone who won't sit where they are put off the plane. Try and make sure you are still on the runway at the time, but really, meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I disagree with the "meh" part as one can extend the logic here, I think, to the point where religious privilege (what the religious would call "accommodation" or tolerance for their beliefs) is significantly curtailed. To me, and I suspect you, too, bcsapper, religious ideas have the same validity, or lack thereof, as any other idea. If you tried to get on the plane and refused to sit next to anyone but a pile of spaghetti noodles because of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may his noodly appendage touch us all) I think we all know what would happen - or what would not happen. But put Yahew, Jesus, or Muhammed behind it and all of a sudden the ludicrous idea has some kind of weight behind it. Well, it doesn't. A stupid idea is a stupid idea. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I meant "meh" in relation to the attempt to make sure the plane was on the runway when you tossed them out. I agree with you about the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) I got on a A320 once when a very tall man boarded. He clearly could not fit in the regular seats and asked one of the people in the emergency exits if they would trade. There were no takers. He offered $100 and someone gave up his seat immediately. So the solution here is simple: if you want a passenger to move to suit your preferences you better be prepared to pay for that privilege. Otherwise, suck it up like everyone else in cattle class. Edited May 18, 2015 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I would agree to move to another seat, firstly out of consideration for the other passengers on the plane, and secondly because I would have no wish to travel next to some bigot who finds my presence repulsive. However, in the general case I think that these guys should be treated like any other passengers who disrupt the flight and refuse to comply with the flight crew: removed from the plane and perhaps charged according to applicable laws. -k 1 Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 The stupid part is them getting on the plane without trying to see if this can be arranged first. Other than that, whatever you can manage is fine with me. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I would agree to move to another seat, firstly out of consideration for the other passengers on the plane, and secondly because I would have no wish to travel next to some bigot who finds my presence repulsive. However, in the general case I think that these guys should be treated like any other passengers who disrupt the flight and refuse to comply with the flight crew: removed from the plane and perhaps charged according to applicable laws. -k I don't think it's about finding you repulsive. It's closer to the opposite, not wanting to be sexually aroused from having impure contact with you. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I would start talking about how sexy womens bodies were, and graphically describe my girlfriend's breasts, and do it all the way to our next destination in hopes the guy hangs himself or something. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't Believe in accommodation. Don't like how it is, go live somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't Believe in accommodation. Don't like how it is, go live somewhere else. The boss just called: you're working Christmas day ! Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I do not believe that those beliefs need to or should be accommodated. It is their choice to take a public flight. As Jews, we believe in obeying local law. That includes custom incorporated into the smooth operation of public life. This kind of behavior brings disrepute on us. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Agreed. No accommodation. Honestly people should be kicked off a plane for making a fuss about something like this. That being said, if I was on a plane and someone sitting next to me asked me to move, and there was another empty seat available, I'd probably do it. Like kimmy said, I'd much rather move than sit next to some wacko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I do not believe that those beliefs need to or should be accommodated. Why not ? It's the airline's business, not yours. This kind of behavior brings disrepute on us. Why ? It's the orthodox's business, not yours. Accommodation is really just a practical matter - do we have to discuss whether a private business should do this or not ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Why not ? It's the airline's business, not yours. Why ? It's the orthodox's business, not yours. Accommodation is really just a practical matter - do we have to discuss whether a private business should do this or not ? It's not accommodation, it's discrimination. Does a business have a right to accommodate racist customers by designating certain areas of the shop or certain hours where people of a certain race are not welcome? Similarly, an airline should not be able to designate seats where women are not welcome. If a religious nutbar is afraid that the person they might get sat beside might be a women and that this will offend their religious sensibilities, they can damn well just pay for 2 seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 It's not accommodation, it's discrimination. Does a business have a right to accommodate racist customers by designating certain areas of the shop or certain hours where people of a certain race are not welcome? What part of that is religious accommodation ? It's not discrimination, it's religious expression. Similarly, an airline should not be able to designate seats where women are not welcome. It's not necessary to designate seats where women aren't welcome, simply to arrange the seating so somebody can sit beside only men. If there are all women on the flight, obviously that's not going to happen. If a religious nutbar is afraid that the person they might get sat beside might be a women and that this will offend their religious sensibilities, they can damn well just pay for 2 seats. Or... the airline can simply figure out a way to accommodate everybody, and grab that segment of the flying public. Easy. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Agreed. No accommodation. Honestly people should be kicked off a plane for making a fuss about something like this. That being said, if I was on a plane and someone sitting next to me asked me to move, and there was another empty seat available, I'd probably do it. Like kimmy said, I'd much rather move than sit next to some wacko. I'd tell him to go accommodate himself to a other seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddy Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 The boss just called: you're working Christmas day ! No problem. Never bothered me in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 What part of that is religious accommodation ? It's not discrimination, it's religious expression. Religious ideas are not special. Sexism based on your religious beliefs is no better than or different than sexism because you're a bigot, or racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 What part of that is religious accommodation ? It's not discrimination, it's religious expression. Religious expression is throwing a tantrum on an airplane because you don't like the type of human that happens to be sitting next to you? Sorry but anyone whose religion requires that of them and they seriously follow it is too dumb to be on a plane anyway. They can stay on the ground, in their cave, where they belong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Religious ideas are not special. Sexism based on your religious beliefs is no better than or different than sexism because you're a bigot, or racism. You may think that way but the law disagrees with you. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Religious expression is throwing a tantrum on an airplane because you don't like the type of human that happens to be sitting next to you? Sorry but anyone whose religion requires that of them and they seriously follow it is too dumb to be on a plane anyway. They can stay on the ground, in their cave, where they belong. Well, as I said above, waiting until you get to the airport and expecting to be accommodated is bad planning. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'd tell him to go accommodate himself to a other seat Don't get me wrong, that's what I'd like to do, but I'm anti-confrontational in nature when dealing with other people in person. Furthermore, that might be downright dangerous. If someone is so brainwashed with religious mumbo jumbo that they can't bear to sit next to me, hearing my voice in reply might just set them off in a murderous rage. People who seriously hold such ideas have such a twisted version of morality and such an alien pattern of thinking that predicting what will set them off is impossible. They are dangerous creatures to be avoided. I'd rather not take the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 You may think that way but the law disagrees with you. Then it's bad law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Definitely an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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