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Liberal Tax Plan


Big Guy

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But it's not a 4% increase. When you go from 29 to 33 that's an increase of closer to 13%.

I mean no offense, but that's just a way of reframing the data to look worse. While 29/33 does indeed equal 1.13, that's not really the number that matters. The only number that matters is what the increase to your marginal rate will be...and that's still just 4%.

And it's not in isolation. I've had two tax increases already from the socialists in Toronto.

Well that's your first mistake. I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in Toronto if they're retired. :P

These things add up, you know.

Yes they add up, and no it's not in isolation, but it's exceedingly unlikely that this 4% will be the straw that breaks the camel's back and forces Canada's wealthy to flee the country.

Further, the fact that ever increasing taxes on higher income people will cause them (most such people tend to be pretty creative and energetic) to find ways to avoid paying that tax has been demonstrated in other jurisdictions around the world.

Perhaps, but this line of thinking suggests that increasing income tax will be offset by more tax avoidance. That's completely false.

Edited by Moonbox
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...

... all of which just goes to show that all personal income tax should be abolished, and the revenue recovered by means of a GST-like consumption tax.

The bigger house, car, yacht you buy, the more tax you pay. An automatic "tax the rich" scheme.

Exempt home-consumption food, kids clothing, school expenses, whatever basics....

I would also like a financial transaction tax.... 1/100 of a penny on every dollar moved.... or whatever value the accountants work out to be correct.... possibly with a lifetime limit of free moves.

So someone who invests and retrieves a few hundred thousand will not pay nearly as much as someone who moves millions.

Think how much bureaucracy that would save, just trying to decipher the tax code.

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I mean no offense, but that's just a way of reframing the data to look worse. While 29/33 does indeed equal 1.13, that's not really the number that matters. The only number that matters is what the increase to your marginal rate will be...and that's still just 4%.

It's true that the marginal rate would rise by 4 points under this plan, but that NOT the number that matters. What matters is how much money people have to pay. The cheque that will have to be written will be 13% higher than the previous one. That's why seemingly small numbers like a 1% difference in a tax rate make a lot of difference.

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It's true that the marginal rate would rise by 4 points under this plan, but that NOT the number that matters. What matters is how much money people have to pay. The cheque that will have to be written will be 13% higher than the previous one. That's why seemingly small numbers like a 1% difference in a tax rate make a lot of difference.

Okay, be honest now:

When you the GST was dropped 2%, were you running around telling everyone that GST was reduced by 15%?

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Okay, be honest now:

When you the GST was dropped 2%, were you running around telling everyone that GST was reduced by 15%?

I wasn't, but I hadn't thought of it that way until Argus pointed it out. Now that I see his logic, I most certainly will be calling out any change in tax rates in that manner from now on.

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I wasn't, but I hadn't thought of it that way until Argus pointed it out. Now that I see his logic, I most certainly will be calling out any change in tax rates in that manner from now on.

Fair enough but you're still just reframing the numbers. It's a 4% drop in your marginal income. That's how it affects your wallet and that's the only number that ultimately matters.

Edited by Moonbox
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Fair enough but you're still just reframing the numbers. It's a 4% drop in your marginal income. That's how it affects your wallet and that's the only number that ultimately matters.

It might be what matters to you, but a 13% increase in the amount I have to pay matters more to me. Matters to a lot of other people too.

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It might be what matters to you, but a 13% increase in the amount I have to pay matters more to me. Matters to a lot of other people too.

Actually the cunning of the plan is that it matters to a very small few. Coincidentally that small few happens to be an increasingly well-off group that the vast majority won't feel sorry for. The widening income gap and shrinking middle class is a very real problem in Canada. The ludicrous threat of Canada's wealthy fleeing the country over a 4% tax hike is not.

Edited by Moonbox
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As your article states, the "middle-class" is subject to varying definitions. Either way, you have a point, but then we also have to consider:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/middle-class-income-stagnation-made-in-canada/article12858848/

and

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/canadas-wage-gap-at-record-high-oecd/article4099041/

to get a little perspective on how awfully things have been going for Canada's wealthy and why the rest of Canadians might not be sympathetic.

Edited by Moonbox
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The left wing bolshiviks of Canada (liberals and ndp) want to tax those of us who chose to work hard so we now earn a very good amount of money. They want to raise taxes to give more of our money to the poor. The poor who are too lazy to better themselves.

So I guess you would prefer to tax those who dont make big money to provide tax relief to those who do. You have got a serious problem there when you consider where the majority of the population sits.

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As we've discussed here at length, the terms Left, Right and Center are meaningless without a frame of reference. The Conservatives are the "extreme right" to the majority of NDP supporters. They would also be considered "extreme left" by any US political standard or "left leaning" by those of us who identify as conservative in Alberta.

Not so many today. :D

.

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So I guess you would prefer to tax those who dont make big money to provide tax relief to those who do. You have got a serious problem there when you consider where the majority of the population sits.

I prefer everyone do their share. Pay an equal share. Instead, the more sucessful a person is...the more tax they pay. It's crazy. We shouldn't be penalized for choosing to go to Uni and work hard in our chosen career becoming sucessful. It angers me that I am forced to pay for those who are too lazy and sit around all day smoking pot and plain video games. Disgusting. Those people then have the gall to complain and call people like me a dinosaur...they should be saying thank you....showing some gratitude.
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Can you explain your view on how you work "hard" because there are many meanings for that. How do you work hard??

I studied a lot in high school to get very high marks so I could get into the school I wanted. The proper extracurriculars etc.

I worked very hard in Uni. Studying constantly so I could graduate with very high marks.

During summer breaks I worked landscaping which again was hard, long hours outside in the heat.

Upon graduation I worked in excess of 80 hour weeks for years. All in an effort to position myself properly.

This is a brief overview of what I'm talking about.

Edited by LemonPureLeaf
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When "the rich" are taxed at more than 50% of their earnings, of course they will look for more and more ways to shield their money......and good luck trying to get top-notch international talent to relocate to Canada. It's a good catch phrase "tax the rich" - but a dangerous path to follow. Be careful what you wish for.....

The Liberal proposal for a new tax bracket would push the top combined tax rate in most provinces to nearly 50 per cent or more, a psychological threshold that economists have long warned will encourage tax avoidance and disappoint government expectations for extra cash.

.........................

“What’s worrisome is the combined effects … It could affect the brand,” warns Michel Kelly-Gagnon, President and CEO of the Montreal Economic Institute, who says Quebec’s current top combined rate of 54.74 is already a problem for Quebec firms seeking to attract international talent.

........................

Philip Cross, a former chief economic analyst at Statistics Canada who is now with the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, questioned whether the new bracket will actually raise $3-billion.

“Not a chance,” he said. “These are the people who are best positioned to take advantage of loopholes in the system. The idea of soaking the rich to pay for benefits for other people never works out.”


Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-new-high-income-bracket-may-encourage-tax-avoidance-economists-warn/article24263994/

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When "the rich" are taxed at more than 50% of their earnings, of course they will look for more and more ways to shield their money......and good luck trying to get top-notch international talent to relocate to Canada. It's a good catch phrase "tax the rich" - but a dangerous path to follow. Be careful what you wish for.....

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/liberals-new-high-income-bracket-may-encourage-tax-avoidance-economists-warn/article24263994/

Its not a matter of taxing the rich, its taxing the income wherever it happens to be. Our tax code should reward productive behavior ahead of investment income the vast majority of which goes to publically traded companies. It should reward people that get off their ass and really DO stuff... make widgets that improve peoples lives... sell products and services that people need and want. It shouldnt reward people that just shuffle paper around.

What we SHOULD be doing is creating a tax code that promotes business diversification, and makes things easy for entrepreneurs, sole proprietorships, and small business.

As for having a hard time getting "top notch people to relocate to Canada" thats a red herring. People come here because its one of the best places in the world to live... Lots of people want to come here and small tweaks to our tax regime are not going to create a shortage of workers... skilled or otherwise.

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Its not a matter of taxing the rich, its taxing the income wherever it happens to be. Our tax code should reward productive behavior ahead of investment income the vast majority of which goes to publically traded companies. It should reward people that get off their ass and really DO stuff... make widgets that improve peoples lives... sell products and services that people need and want. It shouldnt reward people that just shuffle paper around.

What we SHOULD be doing is creating a tax code that promotes business diversification, and makes things easy for entrepreneurs, sole proprietorships, and small business.

The number one thing you could do to make the tax code promote and make things easy for small businesses, startups, entrepreneurs, etc, is to make the tax code simpler. For a small business, by far a higher cost than the taxes themselves is the time and effort to make sure you are properly complying with the millions of regulations regarding your finances. Of course, simplifying anything is the complete opposite direction of any changes backed by any party anywhere. Politicians mostly come from legal and finance backgrounds, and to them, more legal complexity is good, it generates jobs for them and their buddies. Put some engineers in charge of the tax system instead of lawyers and we'd simplify the thing right down to something that can be described and fully understood on one page :)

As for having a hard time getting "top notch people to relocate to Canada" thats a red herring. People come here because its one of the best places in the world to live... Lots of people want to come here and small tweaks to our tax regime are not going to create a shortage of workers... skilled or otherwise.

Workers are one thing, the one in a million top innovators who create entire new classes of products/services are always in shortage (because you can't really ever have too many). And these people will go where they have the best chance of seeing their ideas to fruition (many factors affect this, taxes not usually first among them).

Edited by Bonam
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Andrew Coyne's take on Trudeau's tax schemes.

Seldom have the politics of “gimme that” been expressed quite so nakedly...

But then, every line of the Liberal story is a fraud. The middle class isn’t struggling: the $53,000 the median family earned after tax in 2012 is an all-time high — 24 per cent more than in 1997, after inflation. The rich aren’t pulling away from the rest of us: the share of all income going to the top 1% has been falling steadily since 2006. At 10.3 per cent, it is back to where it was in 1998. Fairness? As it is, the top one per cent pay more than 20 per cent of all income taxes. If that is “taking” from the middle class, what proportion would the Liberals say was “giving”? 25 per cent? 30 per cent? How would we know when “fairness” had been achieved?

To put the matter another way, the top one per cent now pay about 33 per cent of their income in tax, on average. Not only is that more than twice as much as everyone else pays — it’s about the same as it was in the early 1980s, when life was fair and “the sky was the limit” and the middle class could catch a break.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andrew-coyne-forget-the-liberal-mythology-canadas-middle-class-is-not-struggling

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I say good riddance to all these poor millionaires and billionaires. They talk as if everything they have ever acquired they did so alone. What a joke! I have been in management positions for over 25 years and have witnessed the cold and calculating work of these responsible citizens.

A global market place has afforded them opportunities to out source overseas for pennies and they have done this quite well to the detriment of the very country that afforded them this opportunity. When overseas is not an option they present their employees with wage roll backs and cuts in company benefits or the threat of job losses. With the weakening of unions in so called democratic nations, what choices do workers have.

Then, these same corporate citizens get every tax break and incentive that can be possibly offered and claim theyre being disadvantaged by a tax rate of 45%. Another fallacy as their wealth seems to grow and the middle class falls further behind, losing homes, jobs, savings and opportunity to succeed.

A survey done in Canada and the US of multi million

dollar individuals showed 40% of them felt they were middle class. What world do these people live in? I guess when you can afford large homes, expensive cars and a holiday retreat your money doesn't go far. How about the rest of us who are only able to find minimum wage jobs despite the education we attained. How about the difficulty of finding affordable housing on these low wage jobs. Rental properties are almost non-existent and even apartment living has turned into condominium purchases.

I say put all these self righteous and greedy bastards on an island to fend for themselves since that is what they claim they have done to rise to their levels of success. In two years they would have either ripped each other apart or died from starvation. They seldom reward the employees that helped build their empires and very few have put back into the economy they themselves have benefited from. Yeah, there are places they can go to shelter their money but they have already done that so what else is their option. This world is awakening and realizing things cannot and will not continue on the present course. When 5000 people on this planet have as much wealth ad 60% of the rest of the world that says a lot. When a millionaire claims middle class status it shows how far from real life they have ventured. Go to your safe havens and live your decadent lifestyles with people just like yourself and maybe you will be replaced by more compassionate and caring people that will return our country to greatness.

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