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Losing Faith In Faith


Mighty AC

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This weekend I had the opportunity to attend an atheism/skepticism/reason conference in the Southern US. I attend many work related conferences as both an exhibitor and delegate, so I expected a similar experience. However, this event felt more like a family reunion than a meeting of strangers. The most diverse group of people I have ever witnessed in one place, (in terms of age, race, sexual orientation, employment and gender) freely mingled and chatted openly, honestly and in an incredibly congenial manner on all topics both personal and public. The conference was full of outstanding speakers on a wide range of topics but that aspect almost paled in comparison to the countless conversations I had.

From these talks I learned how easy it is for me to be an atheist and how painfully hard it can be for those from strong religious families or in the US South in general. I spoke with countless Americans that have lost their jobs solely because they were not Christian. I listened to other heart wrenching stories of people that were ostracized by their family and social groups for simply stating that something is wrong with their belief system. Being an open atheist can be such a painful process for so many, especially in the South, that hotlines and groups of trained listeners exist to help provide support, prevent suicides and really just let people know they are not alone. http://recoveringfromreligion.org/It's amazing how many atheists are posing as believers just to avoid the pain of starting over socially.

The biggest opposition I have ever experienced as an atheist was the fact that my wife didn't want her parents' hardcore Baptist friends to know the nature of the conference I was attending. Coming out as an atheist is often more contentious than any other declaration. Though it can be far more difficult to proclaim one's homosexuality, nobody considers that to be a value judgement on heterosexuals. However, stating that I am an atheist is an automatic, unspoken declaration that I think theistic beliefs are fake and ridiculous.

Has anyone had or known someone that has had a noteworthy experience when leaving religion behind? Or would anyone have a problem if a son, daughter, spouse or any other family member or friend decided to tell you that they have lost faith in faith?

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Has anyone had or known someone that has had a noteworthy experience when leaving religion behind? Or would anyone have a problem if a son, daughter, spouse or any other family member or friend decided to tell you that they have lost faith in faith?

Does leaving supernatural or fantastical thinking behind count? I still have a few childhood friends who can't seem to let go of the sort of thinking that comes from eating one too many mushrooms. At times I've been left feeling a little chagrined when discovering how seriously people take chakras, chemtrails, sasquatches, UFO's, thought attraction etc etc.

It's not just religion that can cause someone to feel like a stranger in a strange land - where open-mindedness rules and not having the capacity to suspend your disbelief is treated like a deficiency.

Edited by eyeball
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I think that people should chose how/when/where/why they reveal their true selves.

I don't know why anybody would care whether somebody is religious, irreligious or religiously irreligious. Something to do with identity I guess. I imagine that's quite a burden.

This Christian Atheist will be attending his nephew's first communion on Sunday and quite looking forward to it.

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Does leaving supernatural or fantastical thinking behind count? I still have a few childhood friends who can't seem to let go of the sort of thinking that comes from eating one too many mushrooms. At times I've been left feeling a little chagrined when discovering how seriously people take chakras, chemtrails, sasquatches, UFO's, thought attraction etc etc.

It's not just religion that can cause someone to feel like a stranger in a strange land - where open-mindedness rules and not having the capacity to suspend your disbelief is treated like a deficiency.

"George Washington, man, he was in a cult, and that cult was into aliens man."

Religion is just supernatural or fantastical thinking so, I guess if your social group was all into some form of woo and leaving that group led to a lack of acceptance then it would be similar. Though, I suspect the experience isn't as widespread, complete or intense. It must be hard to fear being yourself, regardless of the situation.

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Religion is just supernatural or fantastical thinking so, I guess if your social group was all into some form of woo and leaving that group led to a lack of acceptance then it would be similar. Though, I suspect the experience isn't as widespread, complete or intense. It must be hard to fear being yourself, regardless of the situation.

I bet it's more widespread in politics, which often carries a lot of fantastical thinking too. You know how that goes; if you're not with the fill-blank-here you're with the the fill-blank-there. Look what happens to the poor shmucks in Parliament who go against their parties.

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Two, one was the family moved to Virginian from up north in Ontario. The community (Stepford Wives 2.0) came a calling with Pies and treats but soon asked 'what Church will you be attending? '

Huh? What church ? We dont go to Chur.....um we havent had enough time to look around at what is available.

A girl I was dating had been booted from the Jehovahs (if they only knew just how freaky she was) for a lack of attendance at the chruch she went to, cuz its like 100 K away and she lives in TO now?

Anyhow, she knew I didnt believe in god, was ok with that. But when we were about to go meet her folks , uber JWs BTW, she demanded I not say that I dont believe. I told her if they ask then I will reply 'I do got to church'......but hope they dont press for more cuz my anser was to be ...'for weddings and funerals'

Needless to say , the visit never happened and she stopped taking my calls. She had issues about relligion from her folks.

One night when her dad was staying with her (in HER home) I called around 10pm knowing she would be home from another engagement. Her dad answered and demanded to know why a man was calling a single woman at home, let alone this late at night.

Apparently 'free will' and 'being an adult' didnt go over well.

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I know an ex-jehova as well. She was forced to marry her JW boyfriend at a young age because she had let him round third base out of wedlock. The marriage was a miserable experience, he was mean and verbally abusive, but the church and her family demanded they stay together. Eventually the husband's job forced them to move to Canada and away from their church congregation. She met new friends that encouraged her to leave the a-hole behind. She did, along with the Watchtower, her former friends and a good chunk of her family. Shunning is the price of leaving the church. Anyway, it took awhile, but she is now a nonbeliever, confident and in control, with a new husband and a great young family. All's well that ends well I suppose. Though maybe one day we can skip the indoctrination process altogether.

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I believe everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe or not.

I also believe that humans are often confronted with situations which they cannot explain or visualize. It is like trying to picture infinity. Looking up at the sky and believe that what you see is endless. Things that are not easily explained or that have no explanation cause the normal human to be confused. We are accustomed to either have an answer to any question or believe that there is an answer available. Sometimes there is no answer.

Personally, I am a cafeteria Catholic who has used religion as a basis to assist me in teaching my children a sense or morality, ethics, social interaction and tools for survival. I believe that the basis of any and all popular religions teach the same concepts.

Like some people use Santa Claus to convince them the advantage of doing good over evil others use the tenets of common religions to do the same. I do envy those who are very religious in that they have a final answer - if there is no answer that makes any sense then it must be the will of God or Allah or .....

Those who have no religious affiliation or reject it a mumbo jumbo must then have to deal with their own answers; When a loved one dies it is because ....? When a tragedy occurs to you or your family members or friends and there is really no explanation then the atheist must deal with it. A religious individual always has the default position that it was the will of .....

I think it is comforting when a person has a default position when unbearable and unexpected things happen.

Edited by Big Guy
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Those who have no religious affiliation or reject it a mumbo jumbo must then have to deal with their own answers; When a loved one dies it is because ....?

It's because of whatever it was because of... cancer, car accident, etc. Is it really somehow easier for some people to believe that their loved one died because of the will of an omnipotent entity that sentenced their loved one to an untimely death? Seems to me anyone who truly "loved" their loved ones would rebel against this murderous supernatural being responsible for their deaths, rather than grovelling further into submission.

Edited by Bonam
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Is it really somehow easier for some people to believe that their loved one died because of the will of an omnipotent entity that sentenced their loved one to an untimely death? Seems to me anyone who truly "loved" their loved ones would rebel against this murderous supernatural being responsible for their deaths, rather than grovelling further into submission.

I'm not sure why the idea of believing in God necessarily means you believe that God regularly influences or causes things to occur in the physical world.

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I'm not sure why the idea of believing in God necessarily means you believe that God regularly influences or causes things to occur in the physical world.

Would you find god on your own if no one told you about 'him'? The preconceptions via religion put the god notion in a certain way. I wonder what would happen if we did not indoctrinate children with religion? Let them discover god on their own.

God is nothing more than a human construct. I am not saying it is bad outright, but I am still surprised that people still believe in god in this day and age. I'll use Niel DeGrass Tyson's notion that the more we understand the universe the more god seems to not exist.

Knowledge replaces ignorance. But the ignorance allows many things. It is to being hope to people via religion and god. Hope is nothing without action.

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I was raised loosely in a Catholic environment. I say loosely because we never really went to church but I did attend Catholic school where that religion was pushed on you. I always found it odd how each religion would say it was THE religion and all others were false even though they all seemed to say the same thing. The more I looked into it the more I made the self realiziation that one can get caught up in the details or you can accept the message that each religion is trying to say...which happens to be the Golden Rule in Christianity (Do unto others as you would do upon yourself).

poster.gif

It wasn't until I saw this poster that realized that the message is pure but the people who interpret the message are not. They misinterpret or outright deceive what the message was meant to say and thus logical people see what these people are saying or doing and equate that back to religion iteself. I have seen a number of stories in this thread alone that show how humans have misused the message either intentionally or because they thought it was the right thing but in reality they were actually going against what the message was all about.

Over time I have come to not believe in God per se, but rather know there is something greater out there even though I still call that thing God. Call him or her what you want but I certainly do think there is more to this universe than just us spinning alone on a rock. I certainly can't prove it nor will I try but the reality is there are certain benefits to religion that even science is now starting to see. Just recently Macleans magazine posted the following article.

http://www.macleans.ca/society/science/god-is-the-answer/

The article discusses the results of varius studies showing in general the benefits to relgious association esepecially during the vulnerable teen years. From a scientific stand point, it shows that people are better off with religion in their lives and not just based on being happier. Is it fair to say that religion should be treated like the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus in that it should be used as a teaching tool but then discarded as kids get older? Perhaps but I don't think there is a time where we are 100% free of vulnerability.

SOCIAL-SELLS_MAC1410.jpg

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The more I looked into it the more I made the self realiziation that one can get caught up in the details or you can accept the message that each religion is trying to say...which happens to be the Golden Rule in Christianity (Do unto others as you would do upon yourself).

With all of the hate, genocide, rage, jealousy, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and petty revenge in the Bible, why would you consider Matthew 7:12 to be the focus? Despite the fact that, overall, the Bible conveys a pretty immoral and disgusting message you have chosen to cherry pick a very positive nugget to abide by. So congrats and good for you, but who should get credit for that choice? The god of the Bible or an ethical human such as yourself?

I say if it takes secular human ethics to correct for the scriptural immorality of the biblical god then the religion itself serves no purpose. The positives achieved by people of faith are kind of like my neighbour's Honda Civic with a bolt on spoiler so big that the rear suspension is noticeably compressed. There are certainly benefits to positive group interaction and charitable organizations, but those are better achieved without the dead weight of mythology. Ask yourself if religion is useful in teaching, do unto others, if it also means that you have to explain away the fact that your god hates gays, condones slavery and considers fear of torture to be the preeminent motivational technique. Maybe you are completely capable, nay more capable, of teaching that lesson yourself.

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With all of the hate, genocide, rage, jealousy, slavery, misogyny, homophobia and petty revenge in the Bible, why would you consider Matthew 7:12 to be the focus? Despite the fact that, overall, the Bible conveys a pretty immoral and disgusting message you have chosen to cherry pick a very positive nugget to abide by. So congrats and good for you, but who should get credit for that choice? The god of the Bible or an ethical human such as yourself?

Man....you sure are jaded. What message in particular do you find immoral and disgusting? Is it just Christianity or all religions that have this immoral message? Is it the message or man's interpretation to the message? As per my post above, you can get lost in the details or you can focus on the message. In the Bible it even states that all the rules imposed are difficult to follow which is why Jesus said focus only on one rule....the Golden Rule.

I find it humorous that you say that I have chosen to 'cherry pick' this message when again this same message is common to all the major religions as per the picture I posted.....or have you chosen to ignore that because it doesn't suit your mantra? How can you cherry pick something that is common to all religions?

I say if it takes secular human ethics to correct for the scriptural immorality of the biblical god then the religion itself serves no purpose. The positives achieved by people of faith are kind of like my neighbour's Honda Civic with a bolt on spoiler so big that the rear suspension is noticeably compressed. There are certainly benefits to positive group interaction and charitable organizations, but those are better achieved without the dead weight of mythology. Ask yourself if religion is useful in teaching, do unto others, if it also means that you have to explain away the fact that your god hates gays, condones slavery and considers fear of torture to be the preeminent motivational technique. Maybe you are completely capable, nay more capable, of teaching that lesson yourself.

I guess you didn't want to address the article I presented showing that people are better off with religion? Instead you point to your own misconceptions and analogies that has made you so jaded. You ask about being able to teach yourself the lesson.....well....science and statistics say no...you can't. You can't stand on top of your pedistal and look down on people that possibly don't have that same ability as you.

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My understanding is that when man evolved into a thinking entity, had trouble figuring out how things worked so we created a whole bunch of gods. The one who triggered an eclipse, the one who made rain, the one who made crops grow etc.

Eventually, most of us focused them all into one. We were not told of one - we assumed that there was one (or a few) which was the power and reason behind the things that happen the way that they do.

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Man....you sure are jaded. What message in particular do you find immoral and disgusting?

I find the condoned slavery, rape, genocide, homophobia, misogyny and ritual human sacrifice to be immoral and disgusting. Moses ordered the rape of innocent virgins, the biblical god finds the aroma of burning animal and human flesh to be pleasing, Jesus described how to punish slaves. Sure there are some positive messages but the negatives are plentiful. My point is that you (and most of us) have chosen to behave morally despite the many immoral teachings in the Bible. If it was left up to us humans to parse the Bible and ignore the evils in scripture on our own, what use is the religion itself?

Is it just Christianity or all religions that have this immoral message? Is it the message or man's interpretation to the message?

I'm more familiar with Christianity than any other religion and it has some clearly immoral lessons. I have heard Jainism actually does have an extremely positive message.

As per my post above, you can get lost in the details or you can focus on the message. In the Bible it even states that all the rules imposed are difficult to follow which is why Jesus said focus only on one rule....the Golden Rule.

In the scriptures the Jesus character also contradicts that line by saying that all of the old testament laws apply.

I find it humorous that you say that I have chosen to 'cherry pick' this message when again this same message is common to all the major religions as per the picture I posted.....or have you chosen to ignore that because it doesn't suit your mantra? How can you cherry pick something that is common to all religions?

That poster is great and very positive, but it doesn't accurately represent the central message of all of the religions included. It's another example of human morals surpassing those in religion.

I guess you didn't want to address the article I presented showing that people are better off with religion? Instead you point to your own misconceptions and analogies that has made you so jaded.

I have had many discussions on this topic in the past but ignored here to stay on topic. Studies have shown positives gained from religious belief. However, studies have also shown those benefits actually stem from positive group interaction, rather than religious belief itself. I'm simply saying that we humans are moral and charitable and can benefit from group interaction all without religion.
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I find the condoned slavery, rape, genocide, homophobia, misogyny and ritual human sacrifice to be immoral and disgusting. Moses ordered the rape of innocent virgins, the biblical god finds the aroma of burning animal and human flesh to be pleasing, Jesus described how to punish slaves. Sure there are some positive messages but the negatives are plentiful. My point is that you (and most of us) have chosen to behave morally despite the many immoral teachings in the Bible. If it was left up to us humans to parse the Bible and ignore the evils in scripture on our own, what use is the religion itself?

Let me ask you this....do you believe in consquence? If so, then do you think religion should be void of enforcing consequences? The one thing that stuck with me out of all the teachings at Catholic school is that free will what life is all about. You make choices and there are consequences for those choices. From what I understand (and by no means am I scholar on this) God instructed such actions to teach consequnce. For example, he 'flooded' the earth as a result of the sin that had occurred. You think that we chose to behave morally all on our own when in fact we chose to behave morally because we know there is consquences for our actions. You can pat your self on the back all you want but our society collectively learned the lesson of consequence from religion.

In the scriptures the Jesus character also contradicts that line by saying that all of the old testament laws apply.

Not sure where that is. Can you cite the place in the Bible where he says this?

That poster is great and very positive, but it doesn't accurately represent the central message of all of the religions included. It's another example of human morals surpassing those in religion.

So what is the central message to Christianity in your mind? And while we're at it....what's the central message to a few of the others? I don't know if the golden rule is central to Christianity but it certainly is a major part. I can't speak for other religions however the fact that all of these religions reference this message is important. Regardless human morals had nothing to do with each of these religions incorporaing these statements into their scriptures. They were there long before we evolved to that level.

I have had many discussions on this topic in the past but ignored here to stay on topic. Studies have shown positives gained from religious belief. However, studies have also shown those benefits actually stem from positive group interaction, rather than religious belief itself. I'm simply saying that we humans are moral and charitable and can benefit from group interaction all without religion.

You keep saying that we humans are moral but you forget how we got that way. Do you honestly think that we have always been moral? Do you think that everyone of us is moral? I don't. I think that people make choices every day and for the most part we are a moral society that makes good choices based on the fact that religion has taught our society to be that way.

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Let me ask you this....do you believe in consquence? ... From what I understand (and by no means am I scholar on this) God instructed such actions to teach consequnce. For example, he 'flooded' the earth as a result of the sin that had occurred.

Just to be clear do you believe there is some truth to the biblical tales or are you just stating that, like Santa stories, myths can have a positive impact on behaviour? I'll proceed as if you assign some sort of truth to the Bible.

Is it moral to beat, torture, rape, sacrifice and murder people to keep others in line? Or threaten eternal suffering? The honest answer to these questions proves you have superior morals to a so called omnipotent creator. Now, inventing stories of a jealous, blood thirsty, homicidal god to keep people on the straight and narrow makes sense. Humans have created countless tales like this, including most of the original children's fairy tales.

Not sure where that is. Can you cite the place in the Bible where he says this?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." - Matthew 5:17 But also Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Timothy 3:16, Mark 7:10

Not that I think there is any special value in biblical scripture, they are just a set of poorly compiled fables written by ancient men. I'm only attempting to show that it's not really a good book centered on the golden rule.

You keep saying that we humans are moral but you forget how we got that way. Do you honestly think that we have always been moral? Do you think that everyone of us is moral? I don't. I think that people make choices every day and for the most part we are a moral society that makes good choices based on the fact that religion has taught our society to be that way.

Codified laws forbidding acts like theft and murder long predate our current religions. http://genealogyreligion.net/the-earliest-moral-ethical-laws-were-not-religious

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion/

We even have laws, written on still intact tablets from Mesopotamia that predate the Abrahamic religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

Anyway to me, debating scripture is equivalent to discussing plot holes in a movie. Meaning can be taken from either script but the gods are no more real than Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. I'm happy that many people, like yourself have tempered and watered down Christianity into a positive message. The fundamentalist types, those truer to scripture, tend to be far less moral. My point is that if you are the one who chose to ignore the evil aspects then take credit for it, your morals surpass those of the Christian god.

Edited by Mighty AC
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My understanding is that when man evolved into a thinking entity, had trouble figuring out how things worked so we created a whole bunch of gods. The one who triggered an eclipse, the one who made rain, the one who made crops grow etc.

Eventually, most of us focused them all into one. We were not told of one - we assumed that there was one (or a few) which was the power and reason behind the things that happen the way that they do.

Sounds about right to me. However, now with our accumulated knowledge, leaping to the assumption of magical beings would be unlikely if we didn't indoctrinate and reinforce that idea.
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Just to be clear do you believe there is some truth to the biblical tales or are you just stating that, like Santa stories, myths can have a positive impact on behaviour? I'll proceed as if you assign some sort of truth to the Bible.

Historically they can prove that many people (especially in the New Testament existed) and various events (like Jesus' death) occurred. So unlike Santa, who has never had any glimpse of proof, it is very fair to say there is some truth. Now as far as taking the stories literally....I would say that the stories were explained in the mindset of their timeframe. For example, when the Bible says that God flooded the world (Noah) that meant their world as they new it....which was the land between the Tigris and the Euphrates. We know today that there isn't enough water in the world to flood the entire world so its not possible, but they do beleive the Tigris and the Euprhrates could flood that entire land. Again...context is the most important thing.

Is it moral to beat, torture, rape, sacrifice and murder people to keep others in line? Or threaten eternal suffering? The honest answer to these questions proves you have superior morals to a so called omnipotent creator. Now, inventing stories of a jealous, blood thirsty, homicidal god to keep people on the straight and narrow makes sense. Humans have created countless tales like this, including most of the original children's fairy tales.

You have evaded my question. Do you believe in consquences? Do you think that people should be accountable for their actions? Why fear eternal suffering if you live a good and honest life. Its kind of like worrying about getting a speeding ticket....don't speed and you'll be ok.

Everybody has this perception that religion is all about some pacifistic lifestyle where they only know good however the Bible goes into details right from Genesis showing that people make choices and there are consequencs for choices. If you are a bad person then bad things will come unto you including death. Of course, I think that you exaggerate the amount of stories there are about such consequence versus the number of stories in Bible about love, forgiveness and good will. But I guess that's how you want to percieve things.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." - Matthew 5:17 But also Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, Timothy 3:16, Mark 7:10

Two things on this:

1. I guess you forgot to read the lines immediately following the ones you posted. Here:

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Clearly this establishes a gradient of some sort showing that who ever practices these laws the LEAST will given lower status in Heaven and the one who practices the most will be great in Heaven. They do set a bar by saying you must be of a certain level to get in but that doesn't equate to the absolute all or none that you suggest.

2. The line you posted is Matthew chapter 5. It is the one describing the laws and rules. However, the Golden Rule comes after this and is listed in Chapter 12 where it states:

"12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

As it says...this one rule SUMS up the Law and the Prophets.

Do you want to be murdered....then don't do it to others.

Do you want to be raped....then don't do it to others.

Do you want to have your items stolen....then dont do it to others.

Again...the Golden Rule is the central message.

Not that I think there is any special value in biblical scripture, they are just a set of poorly compiled fables written by ancient men. I'm only attempting to show that it's not really a good book centered on the golden rule.

Yet the book has lasted centuries of critics both historical and modern. It has stories written by multiple people that all come back and say pretty much the same thing. Obviously there is a central message in there that is better than what you call poorly compiled fables.

As for your attempt to show its not centered on the golden rule....I think you have failed. The golden rule is about consequence. Do unto others as you would have done to you. So these people that were getting raped, beaten, murdered....perhaps they had done it themselves and now it was being done unto them. Again...this is about consequence.

Codified laws forbidding acts like theft and murder long predate our current religions. http://genealogyreligion.net/the-earliest-moral-ethical-laws-were-not-religious

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion/

We even have laws, written on still intact tablets from Mesopotamia that predate the Abrahamic religions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

Its not about who had laws first....it about who had a consequence that people feared.

The fundamentalist types, those truer to scripture, tend to be far less moral. My point is that if you are the one who chose to ignore the evil aspects then take credit for it, your morals surpass those of the Christian god.

I think those fundamentalist types are a major reason for the decline in relgion. It forces people to turn when they are claiming everything so literally and forcefully. At the same time, the whole idea of religion shouldn't suffer just because you base your opinion on these extremists.

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