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Baltimore Riots


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No, it's a power problem. Plenty of people might have the impulse to act unethically or immorally, very few actually do until they they have the power to get away with it. Hence the need for greater accountability and higher standards of behaviour for people in positions of trust and power instead of just shrugging it off as a byproduct of a rotten society.

Assuming you're correct, as a society, how do we get from point A to B? I doubt you'd seek a solution from those already in positions of trust and power to instill said greater accountability.........hence to foment your desired change, "society" must (re)act.....and if society chooses not to, that seems rather rotten.

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My point is obvious...and the difference is thousands more killed. Take the "regime" away and see how many more die.

Exactly..........Hobbes summed it up rather well in Leviathan.....in essence, mankind's own fear of our violent animal nature is the allowance and consent to the powerful to govern the masses....Fear of chaos begets the Fear used to maintain a civil society.

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Exactly..........Hobbes summed it up rather well in Leviathan.....in essence, mankind's own fear of our violent animal nature is the allowance and consent to the powerful to govern the masses....Fear of chaos begets the Fear used to maintain a civil society.

Nobody consents to a state police force that kills unarmed people without trial. Invoking Hobbes to support that is ridiculous.
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Seriously, you're invoking the writings of a man that called for an absolute tyranny and dictatorial rule. Basically, you're saying, "sorry about your oppression, but that's just too bad." Political theory has come a long way since the 1600s. Hobbesian theory has no place for many of the ideas in the US Constitution and as a result is utterly irrelevant here, unless you want to bury your head in the sand and completely ignore the fact that unarmed people are being routinely killed by the state without trial.

You know how you're always worried about the cops coming for your guns and you go out of your way to lobby for your right to carry them? If you were a black man in the United States, the cops wouldn't be coming for your guns. They would be coming for your life. And you wouldn't be given a trial first. They would murder you in the streets. Your response here is to just accept that....because Hobbes. Screw that.

Edited by cybercoma
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Nobody consents to a state police force that kills unarmed people without trial. Invoking Hobbes to support that is ridiculous.

Then I expect the power of the State to be diminished forthwith.......for if what you say is true, society Fears the State more than anarchy.

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Then I expect the power of the State to be diminished forthwith.......for if what you say is true, society Fears the State more than anarchy.

The power of the state has been diminished. That's why there's anarchy in Baltimore right now. It's a literal expression that the police have lost the authority to act on behalf of the people. Edited by cybercoma
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Seriously, you're invoking the writings of a man that called for an absolute tyranny and dictatorial rule. Basically, you're saying, "sorry about your oppression, but that's just too bad." Political theory has come a long way since the 1600s. Hobbesian theory has no place for many of the ideas in the US Constitution and as a result is utterly irrelevant here, unless you want to bury your head in the sand and completely ignore the fact that unarmed people are being routinely killed by the state without trial.

Hobbes's political theory is the fundamental cornerstone on which all modern liberal democracy is grounded upon.......the right of the individual.

You know how you're always worried about the cops coming for your guns and you go out of your way to lobby for your right to carry them? If you were a black man in the United States, the cops wouldn't be coming for your guns. They would be coming for your life. And you wouldn't be given a trial first. They would murder you in the streets. Your response here is to just accept that....because Hobbes. Screw that.

I don't Fear (that word again) the State more than I do society as a whole.......we're simpatico for the most part, but what is ironic, you've expressed opinions prior that only the State is the one that should be armed.......chew on that.

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The power of the state has been diminished. That's why there's anarchy in Baltimore right now. It's a literal expression that the police have lost the authority to act on behalf of the people.

But has it? There is anarchy in select poor neighborhoods (see Black), but has yet to spill out into the majority of surrounding areas.....Of course if the State saw fit to cease the riots they could (hence the deployment of the National Guard), but it then becomes a cost/benefits argument......much like fire fighters will contain a fire and let it burn itself out.

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But has it? There is anarchy in select poor neighborhoods (see Black), but has yet to spill out into the majority of surrounding areas.....Of course if the State saw fit to cease the riots they could (hence the deployment of the National Guard), but it then becomes a cost/benefits argument......much like fire fighters will contain a fire and let it burn itself out.

And thats exactly the thinking that promotes that anarchy. If you think that fire will just bur out, you may as well just smack your head against the wall.

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And thats exactly the thinking that promotes that anarchy. If you think that fire will just bur out, you may as well just smack your head against the wall.

The last "riot" that gained traction against a powerful State within Maryland occurred over 230 years ago.......I think the Republic will survive.

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I don't Fear (that word again) the State more than I do society as a whole.......we're simpatico for the most part, but what is ironic, you've expressed opinions prior that only the State is the one that should be armed.......chew on that.

That's an ad hominem which does nothing to refute my argument here. It's also an irrelevant red herring for the fact that I've never called for the state to murder unarmed people without trial.
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The last "riot" that gained traction against a powerful State within Maryland occurred over 230 years ago.......I think the Republic will survive.

The Republic is nothing like Hobbes's theory of the sovereign. That's my point. There are numerous sections in the US Constitution that are at complete odds with Hobbesian theory.

More importantly, there have been numerous riots. Clashes with police are becoming more violent and more frequent recently. Why? As MLK said, "a riot is the language of the unheard."

Edited by cybercoma
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That's an ad hominem which does nothing to refute my argument here. It's also an irrelevant red herring for the fact that I've never called for the state to murder unarmed people without trial.

Ad Hominem? Red Herring? Then what is this:

If you were a black man in the United States, the cops wouldn't be coming for your guns. They would be coming for your life. And you wouldn't be given a trial first. They would murder you in the streets. Your response here is to just accept that....because Hobbes. Screw that.

?

I don't know that your "argument" is really that, but rather an irrational fallacy drenched in illogical fear........

The Republic is nothing like Hobbes's theory of the sovereign. That's my point. There are numerous sections in the US Constitution that are at complete odds with Hobbesian theory.

What sections of the USC are at odds with "Hobbesian theory"? I'm interested in your views, as both my understanding of Hobbes and the US Constitution is rather contrary to your belief:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Reads like Hobbes..........

More importantly, there have been numerous riots. Clashes with police are becoming more violent and more frequent recently. Why? As MLK said, "a riot is the language of the unheard."

More violent and more frequent? Thats subjective, as the late 1960s and early 1970s run counter to your narrative.......

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Update: Medical report states that Gray suffered injury in the police van, corroborating the report that he was trying to injure himself.

Good lord man, do you even read the damn link you give?

It says nothing of the sort re ; corroborating the report that he was trying to injure himself.

You want to rail on lefties all the time, so is this where I put righties are too stupid to read or cant? Which is it?

Details surrounding exactly what caused Gray to slam into the back of the van was unclear. The officer driving the van has yet to give a statement to authorities. It’s also unclear whether Gray’s head injury was voluntary or was a result of some other action

I enlarged it since righties have a problem with reading and/or comprehension. Is there someone with you that could explain it for you?

And who made the report?

Ahh the wonderful men and women of the ever reliable and very trusted Baltimore Police Dept.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Edited by Guyser2
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What sections of the USC are at odds with "Hobbesian theory"? I'm interested in your views, as both my understanding of Hobbes and the US Constitution is rather contrary to your belief:

For starters, the division of powers is completely antithetical to Hobbesian theory. But you apparently have such a great understanding of him that I don't need to tell you that. Edited by cybercoma
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