Indiana "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" controversy

[Mighty AC]

Equal rights for homosexuals is now inevitable. This rash of RFRAs is just a desperate last-ditch effort to keep a category of people down. As it was with slavery and civil rights, religion is being used as a tool to justify evil because of the broad constitutional protections it brings.

Thankfully, those under 40 are already well beyond the hate and discrimination. As they have done with slavery, misogyny, racism, hate and violence, in 20 years time Christians will be pretending discrimination based on sexual orientation simply doesn't exist in their 'good book'. That kind of ignorance is a really good thing. People are already leaving religion in record numbers, so if we can purge the evil from what remains then we all benefit. Maybe one day Jesus will be as good as Santa Claus.

[cybercoma]

Indiana may not be the last. It looks like Maine is looking to pass a nearly identical piece of legislation.

[GostHacked]

Here is the result of this ...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/04/26/bakers-must-pay-135000-for-refusing-to-make-cake-for-gay-wedding/?intcmp=latestnews

The owners of an Oregon bakery learned Friday that there is a severe price to pay for following their Christian faith.

A judge for the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) recommended a lesbian couple should receive $135,000 in damages for their emotional suffering after Sweet Cakes by Melissa refused to make them a wedding cake.

As a result - Aaron and Melissa Klein could lose everything they own — including their home.

The Oregonian reports the recommended penalty is not final and could be raised or lowered by State Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian.

The controversy started in 2013 when Aaron Klein declined to provide a cake for a lesbian wedding. Later that year, the women filed a complaint against Klein and his wife, Melissa.

"The facts of this case clearly demonstrate that the Kleins unlawfully discriminated against the Complainants,” read a statement by the BOLI to the Oregonian. “Under Oregon law, businesses cannot discriminate or refuse service based on sexual orientation, just as they cannot turn customers away because of race, sex, disability, age or religion. Our agency is committed to fair and thorough enforcement of Oregon civil rights laws, including the Equality Act of 2007."

Ok first, if you get SO emotionally distraught because ONE establishment won't make your cake, why not try another place? Or is there a need to make an example out of one of these places of business in order to change things?

A business should not be forced to do business with you as you are not forced to do business with them.

[kimmy]

waaah. Oregon has had civil rights protection for gay people for a long time. Maybe the Kleins shouldn't break the law if they don't want to get fined.

-k

[Shady]

Here is the result of this ...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/04/26/bakers-must-pay-135000-for-refusing-to-make-cake-for-gay-wedding/?intcmp=latestnews

Ok first, if you get SO emotionally distraught because ONE establishment won't make your cake, why not try another place? Or is there a need to make an example out of one of these places of business in order to change things?

A business should not be forced to do business with you as you are not forced to do business with them.

I have to agree. This is bordering on tyranny. The government can now force you to work against your will and against your religious beliefs by the threat of force.

[Shady]

waaah. Oregon has had civil rights protection for gay people for a long time. Maybe the Kleins shouldn't break the law if they don't want to get fined.

-k

Nobody's civil rights were violated. Except those individuals religious beliefs protected by the constitution.

[kimmy]

Funny, but no.

-k

[Shady]

Not only must you approve of their lifestyle and relationship, you must contribute and participate in it! #Gaystapo

[Shady]

Funny, but no.

-k

Not funny, but yes.

[kimmy]

We've been over this already. If you're open for business, you don't get to turn away customers on a whim.

-k

[Shady]

We've been over this already. If you're open for business, you don't get to turn away customers on a whim.

-k

Not on a whim. But yes, many do. The women's only GoodLife won't give me membership. And Michael's on the Thames won't let me in without a jacket. Gender and class discrimination dammit!

[kimmy]

We've already been over women's-only (and men's-only) clubs. And good luck with your "class discrimination" lawsuit.

-k

[Shady]

We've already been over women's-only (and men's-only) clubs. And good luck with your "class discrimination" lawsuit.

-k

You wanna be a teacher and work for the catholic school board? You gotta be catholic. . And no gays allowed.

[Shady]

We've already been over women's-only (and men's-only) clubs. And good luck with your "class discrimination" lawsuit.

-k

I see, so you're ok with some discrimination. cool.

[kimmy]

If you look at American legislation like the Civil Rights Act or the Americans With Disabilities Act, it's clear that not all discrimination is viewed as equal under the law. The law is willing to consider discrimination as a matter of practical necessity, but has no time for discrimination based on bigotry, religiously-inspired or not.

When the Civil Rights Act came into law, those who tried to argue that their religious beliefs forbade them from serving the descendants of the Ammonites and Moabites in their restaurant were told to get bent.

-k

[Mighty AC]

I have to agree. This is bordering on tyranny. The government can now force you to work against your will and against your religious beliefs by the threat of force.

Should a business be able to deny services to blacks or Hispanics? This isn't the answer:

Nobody is asking business owners to engage in gay sex or marry someone of their own gender, they were just asked to bake a cake. Not even a cake shaped like a giant penis or with a message like "Jesus is on the other side of the glory hole", just a regular cake.

Let's consider other services for a moment. Would it be acceptable for a garage to deny fixing your car because you had a Jesus fish on the back? Maybe an ambulance should be able pass you by based on your gender or skin colour. Should a doctor be able to refuse treatment because the identification number tattooed on their wrist proved them to be a Jew? If it's not acceptable for emergency services to discriminate nor should it be for others. The end game of a system like this is pockets of segregated little, antagonistic communities and I don't think anyone sees that as a good idea.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mighty AC

[Mighty AC]

Not on a whim. But yes, many do. The women's only GoodLife won't give me membership.

Male and female washrooms and change rooms are acceptable for reasons of modesty and I think female only gyms are similar. It's amazing how many men ogle and hit on women at the gym.

You wanna be a teacher and work for the catholic school board? You gotta be catholic. . And no gays allowed.

The Catholic school board should be merged and erased. Not only will it end an unethical use of public money, but it will also save $1.5 billion tax dollars.

[cybercoma]

I have to agree. This is bordering on tyranny. The government can now force you to work against your will and against your religious beliefs by the threat of force.

Oh boo hoo.

[cybercoma]

Not only must you approve of their lifestyle and relationship, you must contribute and participate in it! #Gaystapo

You have got to be kidding me. What absurdist hysteria.

"OMG! The gays are going to make me participate!"

Heaven forbid gay people actually be served by public businesses. Maybe we can just run with your thinking and have Gay Ghettoes. All those "filthy faggots" can set up their own businesses to serve "their own kind." It would be just like the Jim Crow South that you so clearly admire, except for those "disgusting and unnatural" gay people instead of blacks.

Edited April 28, 2015 by cybercoma

[Big Guy]

To Mighty AC - I fully agree with you. When Separate schools were given constitutional status that was the greatest mistake by those intending to create our country. Though well meaning at the time, and feeling that the provision was the only way towards unity, they placed that guarantee into the document. It was a mistake.

[Bryan]

You have got to be kidding me. What absurdist hysteria.

"OMG! The gays are going to make me participate!"

You're a damn caricature.

Heaven forbid gay people actually be served by public businesses. Maybe we can just run with your thinking and have Gay Ghettoes. All those "filthy faggots" can set up their own businesses to serve "their own kind." It would be just like the Jim Crow South that you so clearly admire, except for those "disgusting and unnatural" gay people instead of blacks.

Now THIS is a straw man.

[GostHacked]

We've been over this already. If you're open for business, you don't get to turn away customers on a whim.

-k

I reserve the right to refuse service for whatever reason. The other way I can get around it is charge a membership fee in which I can still refuse you service for whatever reason. Should I allow loud obnoxious drunks into my establishment that could disrupt the rest of my clientele? That might not be a very good example, but only one I can think of at this time.

Take your business somewhere else where you will be accepted? How much stress did the gay couple go through in order to put a fine on that bakery? Was it worth it? Instead of letting the market decide (meaning let people decide) we are forced to accomodate everyone. I am tired of it.

Personally I would not be turning away those people. If they want a gay cake for their gay wedding, I will be more than happy to provide great service to have these people come back or give me a good reference.

[cybercoma]

That's fine until you have moral panics where society is so idiotic that it's virtually impossible for their folk devils to get service anywhere.

[GostHacked]

That's fine until you have moral panics where society is so idiotic that it's virtually impossible for their folk devils to get service anywhere.

For every one of these that will refuse you, there are many more that will gladly take your service. Boycott those that discriminate. No need for laws, public ostracizing is the key here. Let them go under on their own.

[cybercoma]

For every one of these that will refuse you, there are many more that will gladly take your service. Boycott those that discriminate. No need for laws, public ostracizing is the key here. Let them go under on their own.

What about in towns that are so religious that there isn't anyone who will serve you? What about those places where shops who do serve these others—be it black, Muslim, gay, whatever—are attacked and vandalized for not conforming to the bigoted social mores of that area? It's fine to think there will be plenty of others when you come from a large metropolitan centre, but what about people who live in small or remote areas?